Open Water Courses and the Swim Test
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Walter once gassed "Do you believe a non-swimmer who can float for 10 minutes and snorkel 300 yds can be a competent diver?
That is exactly what I did Walter to get my OW and YES, I feel I am a very competent diver, you know, for my level of inexperience.
That is exactly what I did Walter to get my OW and YES, I feel I am a very competent diver, you know, for my level of inexperience.
We are talking about swim tests and SCUBA diving certification.
You have misquoted me. Read the post.
The "horror" stories are of instructors who REQUIRE students to swim the length of the pool underwater, while holding their breath. A practice that I feel has NO value in teaching SCUBA diving.
Do you disagree that holding your breath is a bad habit? Not getting your point here. Do you teach YOUR students to hold their breath?
Your comments were not in direct reference as you were discussing snorkelling, and skin diving.
Walter,
I hardly think you are qualified, or informed enough to rate me as "handicapped".
While we are not allowed to REQUIRE additional standards, we ARE allowed to provide additional training and elaboration on many parts of the program.
I remind you, my comments are focused on the watermanship assesment, and the discussion of importance of swimming skills within SCUBA training. Your "rants" seem to be regarding standards in general.
You seem to be pretty adamant about convincing us all that your opinion is the only right one. remember, "minds are like parachutes, they work best when open"
I respect your opinion, please give me the same respect.
o2scuba,
I never said you are handicapped. I said your ability to teach is handicapped by the system in which you confine yourself.
"my comments are focused on the watermanship assesment, and the discussion of importance of swimming skills within SCUBA training. Your "rants" seem to be regarding standards in general."
First, I never rant. Let me see if I understand your idea of respecting my opinion - you refer to what you've said as "comments" and to what I've said as "rants." Maybe we have different understandings of respect.
Second, my comments were directed toward the watermanship assessment. In an earlier post, I explained to Jason that while swimming ability is necessary, it is not the only factor in becoming a good diver.
"minds are like parachutes, they work best when open"
I have an open mind about new ideas with regard to training. I'm always looking for ways to make my classes better. I have looked very closely at the techniques you advocate (they aren't exactly new). I've seen what they produce - it's not pretty and it's certainly not safe. I've had to rescue so many of the divers produced in that manner I stopped counting in the mid 80's. Once you've evaluated something with an open mind and found it wanting, it's time to find something better.
How open is your mind to looking for better methods? Comments like, "Are you training to be a recreational diver, or a Navy Seal?" sound like you aren't very open to methods other than those in the party line.
In one post you say, "yes, PADI too teaches snorkelling/skindiving." In another you say, "Do you disagree that holding your breath is a bad habit? Not getting your point here. Do you teach YOUR students to hold their breath?"
Sounds like you teach your students to hold their breath in one situation and not in another. Amazing! so do the rest of us. You condone it when it's PADI, yet condemn it when it's not PADI?
"The "horror" stories are of instructors who REQUIRE students to swim the length of the pool underwater, while holding their breath."
At least 2 agencies require a 50 ft underwater swim. Are you suggesting instructors should violate standards?
I never said you are handicapped. I said your ability to teach is handicapped by the system in which you confine yourself.
"my comments are focused on the watermanship assesment, and the discussion of importance of swimming skills within SCUBA training. Your "rants" seem to be regarding standards in general."
First, I never rant. Let me see if I understand your idea of respecting my opinion - you refer to what you've said as "comments" and to what I've said as "rants." Maybe we have different understandings of respect.
Second, my comments were directed toward the watermanship assessment. In an earlier post, I explained to Jason that while swimming ability is necessary, it is not the only factor in becoming a good diver.
"minds are like parachutes, they work best when open"
I have an open mind about new ideas with regard to training. I'm always looking for ways to make my classes better. I have looked very closely at the techniques you advocate (they aren't exactly new). I've seen what they produce - it's not pretty and it's certainly not safe. I've had to rescue so many of the divers produced in that manner I stopped counting in the mid 80's. Once you've evaluated something with an open mind and found it wanting, it's time to find something better.
How open is your mind to looking for better methods? Comments like, "Are you training to be a recreational diver, or a Navy Seal?" sound like you aren't very open to methods other than those in the party line.
In one post you say, "yes, PADI too teaches snorkelling/skindiving." In another you say, "Do you disagree that holding your breath is a bad habit? Not getting your point here. Do you teach YOUR students to hold their breath?"
Sounds like you teach your students to hold their breath in one situation and not in another. Amazing! so do the rest of us. You condone it when it's PADI, yet condemn it when it's not PADI?
"The "horror" stories are of instructors who REQUIRE students to swim the length of the pool underwater, while holding their breath."
At least 2 agencies require a 50 ft underwater swim. Are you suggesting instructors should violate standards?
Walter,
First of all your quote:
" You are handicapped in your ability to teach an excellent class with low standards and an inability to add requirements. "
Actually, I do teach excellent classes. I challenge you to find anyone in the northeast who is so thorough. Since you know nothing about our procedures, you are assuming that we teach minimum PADI requirements. Just because we are not allowed to add "requirements" does not mean we are not allowed to train divers beyond those "requirements". By the same token, I could say that YOU are handicaped by the system to which YOU confine yourself, but I would not be so judgemental as I have never seen you teach.
As far as "rants" , your statements to Jason implied that HIS opinion "holds no credibility" as he does not have as much experience as you. I don't entirely agree with all of Jason's opinions, but that does not justify challenging his credentials and experience. Attempting to discredit someone is a defensive reaction (IMO).
"while swimming ability is necessary, it is not the only factor in becoming a good diver. "
Exactly, that was the point of my first post. Basic swimming skills are all that a new diver needs. Swimming the length of the pool underwater, on one breath is overkill (IMO).
"I have looked very closely at the techniques you advocate (they aren't exactly new)."
That's strange, I've never seen you in my classroom, in the pool or at open water training sites. Did you hack into my computer too? Some of my techniques are very new, others have worked well for many years.
"I've seen what they produce - it's not pretty and it's certainly not safe"
Could you be more specific. Which of my students are you referring to? No need to post a last name, just a first name, time frame and where they are from, from there I can probably figure out who you mean.
". I've had to rescue so many of the divers produced in that manner..."
I too have had to rescue more divers than I can count. These are usually poorly trained divers , but in some cases just people who got into trouble for other reasons (injuries, heart problems etc.)
For you to state that MY training techniques are responsible for YOUR rescues is presumptuous, and absurd. One could be held liable for such behavior.
"How open is your mind to looking for better methods?"
Very openminded. I've made many changes over the years. I believe in keeping up with changes of the industry (good or bad) and continuously challenging myself to grow. Thanks for asking, instead of assuming.
"Are you training to be a recreational diver, or a Navy Seal?"
OK, I see your point, this statement does sound a little judgemental or sarcastic. Never-the-less, it does represent my opinion regarding swim tests. The fact that I asked about the requirements of NAUI proves that I am indeed openminded, and interested in others input. I made no assumptions, just simply asked for comments from NAUI instructors. Frankly I am surprised that NAUI requires students to do the U/W breath hold swim. Seems to me that this is a bit much to require for OW divers.
"Sounds like you teach your students to hold their breath in one situation and not in another. Amazing! so do the rest of us. You condone it when it's PADI, yet condemn it when it's not PADI?"
There you go again with the sarcasm. READ THE POST, I never condoned or condemned anything. When you start a sentance with "sounds like", assumptions are sure to follow.
While the swim teast can be done at different times during the program, I think most of us do it closer to the beginning. IMO this is not the time to encourage breath holding. Proper airway control and snorkel use is tought in the early modules of CFT however skin diving, displacement clearing and breath hold is taught after good UW breathing habits have been practiced. But for the third time, my comments are directly related to the thread (swim tests). It's easy to contradict someone by wandering out of the scope of conversation.
"At least 2 agencies require a 50 ft underwater swim. Are you suggesting instructors should violate standards? "
If you read my original post you'll see that one of my firsts statements was "I am a PADI instructor, so I don't know the requirements of NAUI. Any NAUI instructors care to comment on the weight retrieval"?
Gee, that sounds pretty open minded to me.
Violating standards????????? Gimme a break.. Niether of the agencies that I teach with require this, that's why I asked. Just one more of your reaching statements, in an attempt to discredit my opinion.
Scubascott commented that the UW swim was intended to build confidence, that a diver could reach the surface from 70ft. I stressed that in the PADI program, CESA serves this purpose, building the habit of exhaling consistantly while ascending.
Perhaps you do not intend to sound so stand-offish. You do come across pretty strong for someone who clains to be open minded (IMO).
First of all your quote:
" You are handicapped in your ability to teach an excellent class with low standards and an inability to add requirements. "
Actually, I do teach excellent classes. I challenge you to find anyone in the northeast who is so thorough. Since you know nothing about our procedures, you are assuming that we teach minimum PADI requirements. Just because we are not allowed to add "requirements" does not mean we are not allowed to train divers beyond those "requirements". By the same token, I could say that YOU are handicaped by the system to which YOU confine yourself, but I would not be so judgemental as I have never seen you teach.
As far as "rants" , your statements to Jason implied that HIS opinion "holds no credibility" as he does not have as much experience as you. I don't entirely agree with all of Jason's opinions, but that does not justify challenging his credentials and experience. Attempting to discredit someone is a defensive reaction (IMO).
"while swimming ability is necessary, it is not the only factor in becoming a good diver. "
Exactly, that was the point of my first post. Basic swimming skills are all that a new diver needs. Swimming the length of the pool underwater, on one breath is overkill (IMO).
"I have looked very closely at the techniques you advocate (they aren't exactly new)."
That's strange, I've never seen you in my classroom, in the pool or at open water training sites. Did you hack into my computer too? Some of my techniques are very new, others have worked well for many years.
"I've seen what they produce - it's not pretty and it's certainly not safe"
Could you be more specific. Which of my students are you referring to? No need to post a last name, just a first name, time frame and where they are from, from there I can probably figure out who you mean.
". I've had to rescue so many of the divers produced in that manner..."
I too have had to rescue more divers than I can count. These are usually poorly trained divers , but in some cases just people who got into trouble for other reasons (injuries, heart problems etc.)
For you to state that MY training techniques are responsible for YOUR rescues is presumptuous, and absurd. One could be held liable for such behavior.
"How open is your mind to looking for better methods?"
Very openminded. I've made many changes over the years. I believe in keeping up with changes of the industry (good or bad) and continuously challenging myself to grow. Thanks for asking, instead of assuming.
"Are you training to be a recreational diver, or a Navy Seal?"
OK, I see your point, this statement does sound a little judgemental or sarcastic. Never-the-less, it does represent my opinion regarding swim tests. The fact that I asked about the requirements of NAUI proves that I am indeed openminded, and interested in others input. I made no assumptions, just simply asked for comments from NAUI instructors. Frankly I am surprised that NAUI requires students to do the U/W breath hold swim. Seems to me that this is a bit much to require for OW divers.
"Sounds like you teach your students to hold their breath in one situation and not in another. Amazing! so do the rest of us. You condone it when it's PADI, yet condemn it when it's not PADI?"
There you go again with the sarcasm. READ THE POST, I never condoned or condemned anything. When you start a sentance with "sounds like", assumptions are sure to follow.
While the swim teast can be done at different times during the program, I think most of us do it closer to the beginning. IMO this is not the time to encourage breath holding. Proper airway control and snorkel use is tought in the early modules of CFT however skin diving, displacement clearing and breath hold is taught after good UW breathing habits have been practiced. But for the third time, my comments are directly related to the thread (swim tests). It's easy to contradict someone by wandering out of the scope of conversation.
"At least 2 agencies require a 50 ft underwater swim. Are you suggesting instructors should violate standards? "
If you read my original post you'll see that one of my firsts statements was "I am a PADI instructor, so I don't know the requirements of NAUI. Any NAUI instructors care to comment on the weight retrieval"?
Gee, that sounds pretty open minded to me.
Violating standards????????? Gimme a break.. Niether of the agencies that I teach with require this, that's why I asked. Just one more of your reaching statements, in an attempt to discredit my opinion.
Scubascott commented that the UW swim was intended to build confidence, that a diver could reach the surface from 70ft. I stressed that in the PADI program, CESA serves this purpose, building the habit of exhaling consistantly while ascending.
Perhaps you do not intend to sound so stand-offish. You do come across pretty strong for someone who clains to be open minded (IMO).
DSJ
Guest
I've been following this thread and thinking about it as my gf just passed the swim test last week. I swam along in the front crawl and was exhausted half way through the test, having to switch to the back stroke to finish out.
That got me to wondering, since I'm in fairly good shape. So I went looking on the web and found the "Total Immersion (TI)" method of swim instruction. To paraphrase it greatly, it's about streamlining yourself in the water to reduce drag (a familiar refrain here) by proper balance. Apparently if you do it correctly you won't need to kick like mad, nor fight the "sinking" feeling. I ordered the "Swiming Fishlike" video and companion "Triathlon Swimming" book with the notion that I might learn to swim a fair distance in open water. The author's point is that anyone can learn to swim a good distance (certainly furhter than the current swim tests) with a bit of instruction and practice, and our human instincts must be retrained in the water to swim efficiently. So apparently the ability to swim is available to everyone.
The problem I see is that we expect people to be able to swim well when the instruction for doing so is still pretty well hidden from the average person. Training to surface swim looks as though it takes about the same amount of time (or longer) as the average scuba class. I'd guess only a small percentage of scuba students ever took much swim instruction or spent any time doing laps in the pool. The swim test ends up being an ordeal to be survived.
Do any of the sucba instructors point their students at TI for help in surface swimming? Is this more well known than I think? What do you do for students who pass but only barely?
David
That got me to wondering, since I'm in fairly good shape. So I went looking on the web and found the "Total Immersion (TI)" method of swim instruction. To paraphrase it greatly, it's about streamlining yourself in the water to reduce drag (a familiar refrain here) by proper balance. Apparently if you do it correctly you won't need to kick like mad, nor fight the "sinking" feeling. I ordered the "Swiming Fishlike" video and companion "Triathlon Swimming" book with the notion that I might learn to swim a fair distance in open water. The author's point is that anyone can learn to swim a good distance (certainly furhter than the current swim tests) with a bit of instruction and practice, and our human instincts must be retrained in the water to swim efficiently. So apparently the ability to swim is available to everyone.
The problem I see is that we expect people to be able to swim well when the instruction for doing so is still pretty well hidden from the average person. Training to surface swim looks as though it takes about the same amount of time (or longer) as the average scuba class. I'd guess only a small percentage of scuba students ever took much swim instruction or spent any time doing laps in the pool. The swim test ends up being an ordeal to be survived.
Do any of the sucba instructors point their students at TI for help in surface swimming? Is this more well known than I think? What do you do for students who pass but only barely?
David
No one could ever accuse the participants of this board for being dispassionate about what it is they love to do!
Lets all take a deep breath here & throttle back some, what say?
What impresses me about people I've never met is the time & passion they put into these dialogues - we all learn a great deal from the discourse.
Agency - Schmambency I say - it is the INSTRUCTOR who makes it happen for the student. Attitude, motivation, professionalism, patience, empathy - those are all qualities of character. Use them all ( & more ) to teach scuba ( or anything else for that matter ) & the students come away winners.
Ain't none of that lacking here.
Proud of ya's, I am.
Now, lets get back to having fun or I'll write another sea story!
XXOO,
D.S.D.
Lets all take a deep breath here & throttle back some, what say?
What impresses me about people I've never met is the time & passion they put into these dialogues - we all learn a great deal from the discourse.
Agency - Schmambency I say - it is the INSTRUCTOR who makes it happen for the student. Attitude, motivation, professionalism, patience, empathy - those are all qualities of character. Use them all ( & more ) to teach scuba ( or anything else for that matter ) & the students come away winners.
Ain't none of that lacking here.
Proud of ya's, I am.
Now, lets get back to having fun or I'll write another sea story!
XXOO,
D.S.D.
DeepSeaDan once bubbled...
[
Lets all take a deep breath here & throttle back some, what say?
OK, as long as I don't have to hold that breath for a full thread length
Good words DSD.
Thanks for the reminder of why we are all here.
Fully decompressed,
Andrew
"OK, as long as I don't have to hold that breath for a full thread length"
As long as you can make the required 50 ft, you have a shot at earning the card.
As long as you can make the required 50 ft, you have a shot at earning the card.
ihunter
Registered
First, in the interest of full disclosure, I leave tomorrow (Fri 19 Sep) to complete my NAUI Scuba Diver (OW) checkout dives, so I know next to jack squat other than what I've read or heard. But hey, I have an opinion about everything -- ask my wife.
That said, I feel like I can shed some light on the reason for some of these requirements.
First off, the 10# weight thing -- my instructor said that 10# is about the weight of your average disabled diver, and if you can pull 10# up from the bottom, you might just be able to save someone's life some day, Scuba or no Scuba. As Martha would say, "It's a good thing."
Next, the 50' underwater swim. Everyone's familiar with the Emergency Swimming Ascent, right? Need I say more? (I will anyway -- lol -- I was told this is to ensure you could reasonably expect to be able to swim from a short depth without having to resort to a bouyant ascent)
Then the surface swims -- and we're approaching the crux of it -- in the case that you ran out of air, and made it to the surface OK, and had a BC problem such that it was not positively bouyant, one might one day be needing to swim a short distance (200 yards?) to your dive boat.
Incidentally, NAUI requires both a 200 yard unequipped surface swim in ADDITION to a 450 yard swim with snorkeling gear. I'm a horrible swimmer -- I failed my first attempt at the 50' underwater swim -- but both distance swims were easy for me, using a modified, RELAXED breaststroke for the unequipped one.
The common factor here is that NAUI leans toward requiring more rescue/self rescue skills than is arguably required. For instance, we also covered retrieving an unconscious diver from depth, while maintaining an open airway and venting their BC while ascending, as well as surface rescue techniques including ditching their gear and towing them. If you don't want to be required to demonstrate those skills for your OW certification, don't use a NAUI instructor.
I know plenty of non-NAUI divers I'd be happy to buddy with -- PADI/SSI/whatever -- but I know I'd feel a wee bit better knowing that my buddy had some basic rescue skills. Before I get flamed, I'm not saying that "PADI divers can't do rescues" -- I'm just saying that I'd rather my buddy have those skills, no matter where they got them (PADI AOW/Rescue, YMCA, The Internet Guide To Cool Scuba Skills, whatever).
Ian
That said, I feel like I can shed some light on the reason for some of these requirements.
First off, the 10# weight thing -- my instructor said that 10# is about the weight of your average disabled diver, and if you can pull 10# up from the bottom, you might just be able to save someone's life some day, Scuba or no Scuba. As Martha would say, "It's a good thing."
Next, the 50' underwater swim. Everyone's familiar with the Emergency Swimming Ascent, right? Need I say more? (I will anyway -- lol -- I was told this is to ensure you could reasonably expect to be able to swim from a short depth without having to resort to a bouyant ascent)
Then the surface swims -- and we're approaching the crux of it -- in the case that you ran out of air, and made it to the surface OK, and had a BC problem such that it was not positively bouyant, one might one day be needing to swim a short distance (200 yards?) to your dive boat.
Incidentally, NAUI requires both a 200 yard unequipped surface swim in ADDITION to a 450 yard swim with snorkeling gear. I'm a horrible swimmer -- I failed my first attempt at the 50' underwater swim -- but both distance swims were easy for me, using a modified, RELAXED breaststroke for the unequipped one.
The common factor here is that NAUI leans toward requiring more rescue/self rescue skills than is arguably required. For instance, we also covered retrieving an unconscious diver from depth, while maintaining an open airway and venting their BC while ascending, as well as surface rescue techniques including ditching their gear and towing them. If you don't want to be required to demonstrate those skills for your OW certification, don't use a NAUI instructor.
I know plenty of non-NAUI divers I'd be happy to buddy with -- PADI/SSI/whatever -- but I know I'd feel a wee bit better knowing that my buddy had some basic rescue skills. Before I get flamed, I'm not saying that "PADI divers can't do rescues" -- I'm just saying that I'd rather my buddy have those skills, no matter where they got them (PADI AOW/Rescue, YMCA, The Internet Guide To Cool Scuba Skills, whatever).
Ian
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