ihunter,
"NAUI requires both a 200 yard unequipped surface swim"
Your instructor may require this, but NAUI does not. NAUI used to require a 225 yd swim, but some time ago eliminated the distance requirement entirely. NAUI now requires a given number (12?) of stroke cycles instead. NAUI does allow its instructors to add requirements.
o2scuba,
You are reading way more into my words than I've put there and you are taking it way too personally.
Let's look at a few points.......
"you are assuming that we teach minimum PADI requirements."
Nope. I'm not assuming that at all. I am merely taking you at your word, as evidenced by :
"Asking students to do MORE than the requirements is far from reasonable, lenient or prudent."
I was assuming you would act in a manner you would find reasonable, lenient and prudent. I apologize for that assumption. I'll try not to let it happen again.
"I've never seen you in my classroom, in the pool or at open water training sites."
It wasn't necessary to attend your class to see what you advocate. You pointed out:
"PADI will not allow an instructor to "fail" a student because they could not complete the swim requirements beyond the PADI requirements."
That was in addition to your above statement about not asking students to do more than required by the agency. While you may not (and you haven't been exactly clear on that topic) teach minimum PADI standards, that is what you have advocated in your posts in this thread.
I never said I rescued any of your students. I said, "I've had to rescue so many of the divers produced in that manner I stopped counting in the mid 80's." Taken in context, that clearly refers to training while following minimum PADI standards, not students you've personally trained. You may be the best instructor to ever put on a pair of fins, I don't know. I do know the methods you have advocated in this thread leave much to be desired.
"I could say that YOU are handicaped by the system to which YOU confine yourself"
You could say that, but the system in which I teach allows me to add requirements. It allows me to present skills in a much more logical order than the rigid order required by other systems. The system I use is not confining.
"Actually, I do teach excellent classes. I challenge you to find anyone in the northeast who is so thorough."
If that is true, and I have no reason to doubt your statement, you obviously (an assumption, I admit) "train divers beyond those 'requirements'." In order to produce the quality you've assured me you do produce, you would have to train in that manner. My question to you is how would you produce that quality with a student who refused to do any of the "training beyond requirements?" You can't withhold the card. You would be forced to certify a diver that was no better than those taught by instructors who do teach absolute minimums.
Jason is a likeable chap, when he's not trolling. OTOH, he was comparing his 1 year of experience to DeepSeaDan's 30 years. Sorry, but you know as well as I that anyone with an ounce of sense would give more weight to DeepSeaDan's opinion that to Jason's. I did not compare his experience to mine. He compared his experience to DeepSeaDan's. I merely pointed out what that comparison actually showed, since it was disguised in Jason's post. Also, I never said Jason's opinion "holds no credibility." I said, "you can't expect me to give your opinions equal weight with the opinions of those with much greater experience."
"Are you training to be a recreational diver, or a Navy Seal?"
"OK, I see your point, this statement does sound a little judgemental or sarcastic. Never-the-less, it does represent my opinion regarding swim tests."
If such a statement represents your opinion regarding swim tests, I believe it indicates you are not as open minded as you believe.
"The fact that I asked about the requirements of NAUI proves that I am indeed openminded, and interested in others input."
No. It does prove you are interested, it proves nothing about you being open minded, one way or the other.
"There you go again with the sarcasm. READ THE POST, I never condoned or condemned anything."
I'm glad it didn't go unnoticed. I hate it when good sarcasm is wasted. Actually, I did read the post:
"I've heard other horror stories of instructors who require students to swim the length of the pool underwater, on one breath."
When you refer to a practice as a "horror story" you have, indeed, condemned that practice.
"Do you disagree that holding your breath is a bad habit?"
Here you are saying holding your breath is a bad habit. You were not referring to someone on SCUBA. You were referring to the watermanship evaluation. You again condemned the underwater swim.
"yes, PADI too teaches snorkelling/skindiving."
Since it is impossible to skin dive without holding your breath, you are either condoning teaching students to hold their breath or condemning PADI's practice of teaching skin diving. I admit, it was an assumption on my part that you were condoning teaching students to hold their breath. I apologize for the assumption. You tell me, were you condoning the practice or condemning PADI?
"While the swim teast <sic> can be done at different times during the program, I think most of us do it closer to the beginning."
Depends on the agency. Standards require my students to pass a swim test before I can start training then in the pool. They must swim 300 yds, swim 50 ft underwater and stay afloat for 15 minutes before I can certify them. If they can't accomplish this, I can continue in water training and allow them to complete those requirements later if they have completed a 200 yd swim, a 40 ft underwater swim and 10 minutes afloat. If they can't pass those requirements, we can't continue in water training until they can.
"IMO this is not the time to encourage breath holding."
Why? You haven't started to teach them anything at this point. I started teaching in '86. In all the years since, I've never had a single student who could not tell the difference between swimming, skin diving and SCUBA. This is really a non-issue. The underwater swim doesn't teach them to hold their breath underwater. They already do that. You need to teach them not to hold their breath while on compressed air.
Since you so adamantly condemned the underwater swim, I wanted your opinion on how instructors should deal with standards which require that swim. Apparently, violating standards is not how you'd suggest they deal with the requirement (another assumption, I know). I still don't know what approach you would recommend.
"You do come across pretty strong......."
A curse, I know, but don't let it bother you my feelings aren't damaged. My editor is traveling right now and is unable to keep me out of trouble. I'm aware my words often come across as harsh when that is not my intention, but I usually discover it when a friend tells me, "It sounded like ......"
At no time (OK, so the comment about "You condone it when it's PADI, yet condemn it when it's not PADI?" is an exception) have I said anything in this thread which I've intended for you to take personally.
