Overfilling Scuba Cylinders

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I think the main weak part on a 1st stage regulator is the high pressure seat, once this fails the regulator free flows, I dont think ive heard of a catastrophic explosion of a first stage ever. I wonder has anyone? So besides extra wear on the high pressure seat I think the regulator should be ok at most any pressure, and high pressure seats are usually pretty cheap to replace.

Now obviously it wouldnt be the greatest to have your high pressure seat fail during the dive, but I think chances are it will fail as you turn the tank on if its going to fail. Also as most divers doing overfills on LP steel tanks are cave divers who dive doubles, they can shut off the offending regulator if need be.
 
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...then I exploded
 
Fabers are designed rated for 10000 cycles at 4000 psi. I figure I have 9600 more fills left before I sell off to one of you guys. Ha Ha
 
finally, a useful response.

looks to me that a faber tank rated to 2400 can be pressurized to 3600 or even 3900 without doing much more than adding wear to the HP seat in the first stage. now with this information, why does the DOT regulate the pressure in these tanks.
 
I must have missed the point to this, so let me rephrase my question.

Without 49 CFR 173 and the DOT regulating fill pressures (like outside the US), what can 2400psi tanks take before they cause irreversible damage to the tanks or rupture? Is this pressure higher or lower than what today's first stages are able to handle?

Unless you can get the manufacturer to tell you exactly was metal was used and how the tank was designed (wall thickness, head design, etc) and you hire a Registered Professional Engineer, nobody on the planet (other than DOT and the manufacturer) can answer this with credibility. Well, maybe with destructive testing of enough samples it could be worked out but who wants to take the liability of saying "Hey, that 2400 psi tank is good for 4000 psi forever and always!" and then stick behind it with liability insurance.

The manufacturers are required to perform destructive testing on a particular schedule. But I notice that they don't publish the results for mere mortals to read.

You know that hydro tests for 3AA and 3AL tanks are at 5/3 pressure so a 2400 psi tank is tested at 4000 psi without irreversible damage. The metal is still well within the elastic limit. The test pressure for a Worthington HP100 is 5250 for a 3442 psi tank - about 1.5 times working pressure as opposed to 1.666 times for 3AA and 3AL tanks.

Would 5250 psi damage a 1st stage? I would bet on it. Should anyone pressurize a tank to test pressure and then dive it? Absolutely not!

The regulator manufacturers tell you how much pressure they recommend in the Owner's Manual. Like this from the Delta 4 manual:

WARNING: Maximum working pressure for an Oceanic Yoke style connector is 3500 PSI/232 BAR and for a DIN style connector is 4500 PSI / 300 BAR

Now, if you want to try to outguess the engineers that designed this stuff, you're going to be on your own.

Richard
 
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It is a violation of Federal law (DOT regulations - somewhere in 49 CFR 173) to overfill a tank.

DOT 49 CFR 173.32 (f)3.

What should happen is that DOT stings all the shops in Florida and puts an end to this practice once and for all. But they probably have other things to do: coffee breaks, long lunches, retirement planning, etc.

Richard

Possibly. But it's been upheld by the courts that DOT regs apply to interstate commerce. The DOT could probably care less unless you're transporting it in a commercial aircraft or by commercial trucking, and even then, have you ever heard of anyone else getting inspected, much less cited for a 49 CFR violation?
 
Funny how the EU will rate the same tanks much higher yet our DOT keeps it low. I will try to dig up results on the explosion proof fill station test that were done years back. If memory serves correctly w/ different brands, lps were letting go from 7 k - 9600 and hp's were 10k to 14k. Keep in mind, this was catastrophic failure of the tank itself, not the valves.

I fill LP's for myself and buddies to 3350...... hp to 4200...... I have to know the service of the tank for a jacked LP......Al gets filled to rating only. my pump, my rules....:wink:



Man, there is a ton of movie fans on this thread yesterday and today, did I miss the YouTube link? Extra butter please..... :D

:popcorn::popcorn:
 
Unless you can get the manufacturer to tell you exactly was metal was used and how the tank was designed (wall thickness, head design, etc) and you hire a Registered Professional Engineer, nobody on the planet (other than DOT and the manufacturer) can answer this with credibility. Well, maybe with destructive testing of enough samples it could be worked out but who wants to take the liability of saying "Hey, that 2400 psi tank is good for 4000 psi forever and always!" and then stick behind it with liability insurance.

The manufacturers are required to perform destructive testing on a particular schedule. But I notice that they don't publish the results for mere mortals to read.

Now, if you want to try to outguess the engineers that designed this stuff, you're going to be on your own.

I'm an Engineer*, and there's no way you'd ever stamp something like that and take liability. Your legal responsibility lasts for six years after your death, and frankly, something like this is just not worth the money. I'd respond with "buy double steel 130s or a rebreather." There are tanks on the market that will support any given PSI. You may not be able to lift them, but that's another issue.

You've got the right idea WRT sample sizes and destruction. There is, of course, a safety factor built into the tanks. Let's call it X. (I don't know what it is.) That would mean that your tank could probably be filled to 3000 PSI times X before it explodes.

However, that doesn't mean YOUR tank will fill to that pressure. It means that a typical tank without defects would be able to withstand 3000 PSI times X. Modern manufacturing reduces the number of bad tanks in the batch, and testing weeds out the worn-out tanks.

The tanks are cast, which means that defects in the material or manufacturing will be unknown. Generally, you'll be okay, but you might have a little bubble near the wall, weakening the structure on your particular tank. You now have a tank in the batch which is weaker than the others by some factor Y. If your math was good, then all instances of Y will be smaller than the safety factor, X.

The reason you don't ever publish the testing results is pretty obvious. If it turns out that Fictional Tanks, Inc, publishes that their 3000 PSI tanks have a safety factor a 5, someone is going to think that means the tanks can be filled to 15k. Thoon! Then you've got someone suing Fictional Tanks, and if they're found to have 1% of the liability, they could end up having to pay for a new dive shop and/or a wrongful death suit.

Overfilling a tank is, simply, irresponsible. Yes, you'll get away with it. No, it's not the right solution. You're trusting people who aren't aware of all the facts and saying, "it's fine because I've been doing it for 20 years / everyone does it" without realizing how lucky you really are. Just because the hydro tests fill the tanks to 5k, that doesn't mean it'll work for your tanks all the time. They do wear out, although the filling / emptying process is remarkably non-stressing for the materials involved.

Yes, I know you've got a tank that you've been overfilling for 20 years. That doesn't mean that all tanks can be overfilled for 20 years. You just got a good one that's probably an outlier.

*Electrical, EIT.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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