PADI Divemaster - Acceptable BSAC Qualifications?

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1. its to dive in the UK then follow a training programme designed for UK waters – do Sports Diver (but then I would as I’m a little bias – see my signature block)

Or Rescue diver in the UK. Or the SSI equivalent. Or any of the others.

1. you want to become an instructor, either will do, but bare in mind 1 and 2

One thing with that is if you want to work as an instructor especially work abroad than PADI is the way forward. I've been teaching abroad since 2007 and so far the current number of BSAC courses ive taught...... Zero. There simply isn't the demand. You won't get a job as a BSAC instructor alone so you need to start looking at PADI and/or SSI

With limited funds why not just go diving and forget all this hype about qualifications. You should be able to do most things as a PADI AOW.

That's what my advice would be. Its the stage where the basics are there but the experience needs reinforcing. Time to dive for the sake of enjoying diving without courses.

In my view DM wont really address your own dive skills. It's not intended as that. It's geared up to supervising others and helping instructors. My recommendation for anyone looking to improve their own dive skills would be to do an entry level technical course. Those will take the basic skills and polish them along with introducing problem solving, task loading and so on. Even if you have no interest at all in technical diving the first level courses merely improve existing standard diving skills.

 

[Dave1w]

RD does focus more on core rescue skills, but I'm not sure Oxygen Admin is in there? The rescue courses I have seen have all been pretty slap dash, with something that looks like a rescue being acceptable. That's probably where I am more than what's supposed to be in the course. CPR is included in SD, but you'd look to have also done O2 Admin and PRM to get a good rounded view of things.

From some charts I have seen, it shows PADI accept Sport Diver as an Open Water Diver if they have less than 20 dives, which does seem a bit odd, if you can, as is often done, finish AOW in 9 dives, never having covered any rescue or indeed seen a dSMB.
There is another way, for DM, I understand that CMAS 2 Star Diver is a pre-requisite, which you can apply for as a Sport Diver, and which may get you round that.

Something else to bear in mind, nowadays, having all PADI training and certifications is no longer (or shouldn't be) a barrier to diving or even furthering your training with BSAC, so you can quite happliy train up to Dive Master with PADI and dive in a BSAC club as a Rescue Diver, Dive Master, leading others etc. if you wanted to become a BSAC Instructor, you can also join the Instructor training courses and exams, with your DM grade being held as an equivalent. So it could make sense to get the training through the PADI channel, as the above definitly doesn't work as easy the other way!

If you;re aiming for DM then realistically rescue diver is the way forward, its a lot of the skills you have to demonstrate on a DM course, some can be carried across like the emergency assistance plan and so on.

Rescue skills wise padi RM wins. BSAC will give you a life with tow and AV at sport diver level only. PADI RD has lifts, tows, AV/CPR, oxygen admin, missing diver procedures, search patterns, panic and tired diver, assistance plans and a lot of other things.
SD will get you a 35m ticket with deco (albeit really basic and poorly covered) and introduce diving skills such as DSMB use, distance line, basic nav and dive leading but only the bare bones rescue lifts and tows.

One question though - why are you looking to progress to divemaster?

 

[Edward3c]

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Or Rescue diver in the UK. Or the SSI equivalent. Or any of the others.

....

Were these courses designed for UK waters?

No they were designed for the warm water diver in the Carribean. Local instructors will have adapted them, but the basic course wasn't.

Being anti BSAC, you won't accept this explination.

Kind regards

 

[DevonDiver]

From what I understand:

1) BSAC Sports Diver isn't a total equivalent to PADI Rescue Diver. You need to complete an addition course, the BSAC Practical Rescue Management module, in order to gain equivalency with Rescue Diver.

2) Rescue Diver is probably more useful if you will be progressing to DM level in the not-too-distant future. You'll need to know how PADI teaches/does rescues in order to best pass the DM rescue assessments etc. If there are discrepancies/variations between the BSAC and PADI approach to rescue techniques, then you could fall foul of it.

 

[Nik Wills]

I originally qualified with BSAC in 2005 at OD level with a club based where I work. Then in Jan 2006 I went to the Maldives and it was suggested I would get the best out of my diving there if I could go to 25-30m, the advice was right and I had a great time. In May 2006 I completed the Sports Diver course with the BSAC club. The quality of training across the board was brilliant and probabley due to the attitude of the instuctors. Unfortunately in my experience there are a lot of sniffy people that claim one is better than the other, mainly because BSAC start to train you rescue techniques at entry level whereas with PADI it will be the 3rd course you do. There are differences in these techniques and consider myself lucky that one of the instructors at the BSAC club was also a PADI instructor so showed us both ways and explained the pros and cons.
Late in 2007 my wife completed her PADI OW + AD. In 2009 we completed our RD together. In Feb 2011 I completed my DM course. Later this month I am booked on a DDI crossover course and have now pencilled in the dates during April to do the AI. I have decided to take my time and learn as much as possible from as many instructors as possible. I spent a year as an 'intern' during my DM course and attended at least 45 3hour pool sessions in that time gaining invaluable experience with a wide variety of students, I have spent the last 3 years as a volunteer helper with the Scuba Trust. In that time I have kept my BSAC membership current as a direct member and am not affiliated to any club with the intenton that once I have qualified as an instructor I will do the crossover training with my localish club, as PADI make it more difficuilt to crossover than BSAC.
Unless you intend to use your DM card as an active DM I would not bother to do the course in the UK you are not allowed to 'work' as a paid DM. You can of course do the intensive courses but you have to hope that the centre you do that with isn't just doing it to earn a buck.
I am a newbie to this forum but already it is clear there are plenty of people passionate about passing their knowledge on and will be able to advise you who best to train with in your area. I would recommend you do the rescue course it can be great fun with the right group and if you can afford to and your local club is a good one do the BSAC sports diver.

 

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RD does focus more on core rescue skills, but I'm not sure Oxygen Admin is in there?

Yes it is. See Exercise 8 (and the manuals and the exams).

The rescue courses I have seen have all been pretty slap dash, with something that looks like a rescue being acceptable. That's probably where I am more than what's supposed to be in the course. CPR is included in SD, but you'd look to have also done O2 Admin and PRM to get a good rounded view of things.

And lifesaver/advanced lifesaver (covers the assists, reaches and other things) and the first aid for divers course (covers EFR).

Then you have nearly a rescue diver albeit you're still missing some of the actual search pattern and panic diver scenarios.

---------- Post added February 21st, 2013 at 03:43 AM ----------

Were these courses designed for UK waters?

Just as much as BSAC was yes.

No they were designed for the warm water diver in the Carribean. Local instructors will have adapted them, but the basic course wasn't.

Excellent. Bold claim that. Care to supply the tiniest shred of evidence to back that up? When was PADI caribbean?

Being anti BSAC, you won't accept this explination.

You're the BSAC council so clearly have a self-interest and some bias here but here just like the BSAC forum you display a remarkable ignorance for the actual course content of any other agencies syllabus and seem unable to accept that BSAC is far from perfect in a lot of areas.

Whilst on the subject of adaptation how does it matter? Do divers somehow panic differently depending on latitude? Do search patterns differ depending on the flag flying on the diver centre? Are the physics somehow different around the British Isles?

You really should make yourself familiar with the syllabus for RD (along with the stress & rescue and other agencies courses) before making non-factual sweeping statements like the above.

You also seem completely unaware that some places outside the UK also have cold water (yes, even colder) and low visiblity (yes amazingly). UK diving is not some magical impossible feat that can only be completed by god-like divers using a course that is customised to that area.

---------- Post added February 21st, 2013 at 03:49 AM ----------

From what I understand:

1) BSAC Sports Diver isn't a total equivalent to PADI Rescue Diver. You need to complete an addition course, the BSAC Practical Rescue Management module, in order to gain equivalency with Rescue Diver.

There's no such thing as an equivalency but if trying to you'd need to get:-

(i) Sport Diver (covers lifts, tows and in-water AV)
(ii) Practical rescue management SDC (covers the scenarios involving delegation 1,2)
(iii) first aid for divers (Covers EFR)
(iv) The O2 admin SDC (Exercise 8)
(v) Lifesaver and Advanced lifesaver (response from shore or dock, assists, throws and so on)

Then you'd have everything except the panic and tired diver scenarios.

If you have a dive leader they'd already have the O2 and PRM so would "just" need to do the first aid for divers, lifesaver and advanced lifesaver SDCs. The problem with BSAC SDCs is regions will often run those courses once a year and some may not run that course for several years so it might not be possible to do them at all. For example basic lifesaver according to the BSAC site isn't being run at all in 2013. The advanced has 2 regions running it in the entire year (one region - north). FAD is being run in March and November either in the north or london and thats it.

2) If there are discrepancies/variations between the BSAC and PADI approach to rescue techniques, then you could fall foul of it.

This is a big one as BSAC is extremely prescriptive (the most "you must do it this way" of any agencies im aware of). The actual towing of a diver and timing of breaths is vastly different, BSAC mandates mouth to nose whereas PADI mandates mouth to mouth but other methods are available as an option, the lifting of a diver (BSAC mandates in front, PADI favours behind but no standard) and so on. I have to be very careful going from one to the other. (and i have to change my kit as apparently a long hose reg makes BSAC students heads explode with confusion but nobody elses).

 

[DevonDiver]

There's no such thing as an equivalency but....

Well, not sure of the right word to describe it.

The bit where, when reading the prerequisite qualifications needed to enroll upon a course it says "....or equivalent qualification."

if trying to you'd need to get:-

I guess this depends on whether we are considering specific syllabus 'equivalency', or whether we were trying to match skills like-for-like.

It was a long while ago... but I remember having to complete BSAC PRM on top of SD, so that I could progress to a PADI DM course. My training was very muddled back then though... jumping from BSAC to PADI and back again... and all the BSAC training was done via the military, so there was extra stuff routinely added too (ahhh....fond memories of hauling casualties up a 6m jetty ladder at low tide in Bovisand).

 

[String]

I guess this depends on whether we are considering specific syllabus 'equivalency', or whether we were trying to match skills like-for-like.

I'd still stand with the above as certainly in BSAC there is no basic first aid at all without the SDC (military you'd already have that) and so on. I like the idea of rescue skills in the BSAC core courses but its basic "get them up, get them out" only and the later courses don't really address this in more detail so BSAC "wins" early on but then falls behind later. FWIW i really think the dive leader course should deal with missing diver patterns and panic diver scenarios as theres a more than even chance at DL level of having to deal with those.

A lot of entry into a PADI course is at instructors discretion - i went from DL/ADI into a padi DM course. Im glad i did as if i'd skipped straight to IDC i'd have failed. You need the DM to learn the philosophy and way things are done otherwise you'd have a nightmare IDC/IE end. I started BSAC DL/ADI with quite a few SDCs then went PADI DM/OWI then did BSAC OWSI (with random TDI courses in there as well at different times) so a training "mess".

 

[DevonDiver]

A lot of entry into a PADI course is at instructors discretion - i went from DL/ADI into a padi DM course. Im glad i did as if i'd skipped straight to IDC i'd have failed. You need the DM to learn the philosophy and way things are done otherwise you'd have a nightmare IDC/IE end. I started BSAC DL/ADI with quite a few SDCs then went PADI DM/OWI then did BSAC OWSI (with random TDI courses in there as well at different times) so a training "mess".

If I remember rightly, my progression was:

BSAC Club - at Uni.. but never finished/qualified
PADI OW - shortly after Uni
PADI AOW - immediately following OW
PADI EANx - holiday in Spain
PADI Drift - holiday in Maldives
BSAC SD and some SDCs - via military
PADI Rescue - not really necessary, but same instructor who taught me BSAC SD in military.
PADI Deep, Drysuit and Wreck - during the course of my DM training
PADI DM - weekends, over 18 months, at Stoney Cove
BSAC OW Instructor - via military
Some TDI tech - with Mark Powell in Chepstow
PADI IDC - OWSI, then upgrade to MSDT, with multiple (20+) specialty ratings in Thailand
PADI Tech Deep Inst - via the 'Trident' mob in Thailand
SSI Instructor Cross-over - All PADI stuff converted to SSI, Thailand
ANDI Instructor Cross-over - Philippines
ANDI Technical Wreck and Sidemount instructor ratings
PADI Sidemount and Tec Sidemount instructor ratings.

Wow... doesn't 22 years fly by...

 

[Edward3c]

...
I have to be very careful going from one to the other. (and i have to change my kit as apparently a long hose reg makes BSAC students heads explode with confusion but nobody elses).

And that's you're gripe with BSAC. Thanks for your membership contribution.

Kind regards