Parents sue Boy Scouts for 2011 negligence death

[cerich]

Having said that, based on your statement, you seem quite critical about the PADI Instructor credential system - to be coherent with your system of beliefs, I would suggest you either have an informed conversation with PADI about it or resign from it, rather than making disparaging remarks about other members.

You are projecting I'm afraid concerning what you perceive to be my "quite critical" comments regarding the PADI Credential system. I was critical of the many instructors I have seen that turns themselves into PADI Training puppy mills and cut corners. That is not a disparaging comment about PADI so much as a observational statement about the low ethics of many instructors wishing to advance within the PADI system. You comment I should resign or have an informed discussion with PADI regarding it is spurious. To be frank, obviously a training agency makes money by the student, this there is always an inherent conflict. If you can't recognize it...well it would explain why you have demonstrated such a lack of critical thinking in this thread.

My PADI number is 157937, if you wish to file a complaint regarding my comments. I look forward to answering them, or addressing them with PADI (and the world) if they decide to take action.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Actually for the first edition it was because I did not want to share any of the profits with a publisher. never even tried to shop it out. I did have a few industry people review it though. Dan Orr, Gary Mace, Chris Richardson, and Michael Brennan as well as a few others. Bernie Chowdhury did the intro. They seemed to think it was worth putting out there. Brennan's review was this:

"I have recently had the opportunity to read an advance copy of the new book by Jim Lapenta. This well-written new book should be on every diver’s book shelf. Potential divers, new divers, and experienced pros will benefit from the wise and thoughtful information. I have a good library of diving books, manuals, magazines, etc. My first purchase was the New Science of Skin and Scuba, some 40 years ago. This will be a go-to book and is a new standard. Thank you, Jim.
Great book."
Michael Brennan
President, Apollo Sports USA, INC.

Since then I have sold nearly a thousand copies in print and electronic versions between the 1st and 2nd editions. I have those copies in twenty countries around the world on six continents. I elected to put the 2nd edition on amazon due to the demand. As a result I now get a check averaging a couple hundred dollars every month. Certainly not getting rich from it but it is selling.

Outside of agency materials I have been told by other authors in the industry, who publish like I do, that once you hit 500 copies it's a big achievement. That my sales seem to be increasing every month is also an indication that people see the value in it. There is no way now that I'd even consider writing for a publisher.

Steve Lewis is a good friend who has also been my mentor as a diver, instructor, and author. He self publishes and was who suggested the amazon/createspace route. Bigger profits for the author, no contracts, no headaches.

The outline for my next work is on my desktop and is what I will be working on next. After I get done with the new SDI course I've been asked to help out writing. Hmm someone else asking me to write for them professionally as SEI did when I co authored and edited the Search and Recovery/Public Safety diving course for them. Just like my customers who keep paying me to read what I've already wrote.

If not for self publishing there are a great many new authors in every genre who would not be able to get their work out. Some stuff is now available to those who look for it. And the author gets the bulk of the money with no cut to an agent or publishing house.

 

[demed]

You are projecting

You stated that you have seen few MI not to cut corners - that's a disparaging remark towards MIs. Sugarcoat (badly) it as much as you like it, but I'm not projecting. Your follow up statement about the low ethics of instructors wishing to advance within the system is not helping you.

More troubling is that you seem to have this peculiar view that certifying students is a "means to advance" rather than what instructors do, day in and day out, and totally miss the point that achieving a certain credential is a recognition for that work.

 

[Ayisha]

Why is anyone entertaining this BS? How about we stick to the lawsuit in this thread and remember that a child died?

 

[tcascione]

Why is anyone entertaining this BS? How about we stick to the lawsuit in this thread and remember that a child died?

Well that makes sense. Why is this turning into an indictment of PADI? I'm an old YMCA guy (and a current SCI Divemaster) and no PADI fan but this incident is hardly their fault. I'm a current Boy Scout leader and ran a volunteer scout SCUBA program until they insisted on outsourcing but this isn't the BSA's fault either. I am that most maligned of beings, a New York trial lawyer and I see that this is human error, plain and simple. No criminal case (I an an ex-prosecutor) but a definite lawsuit. Do you know why we need lawsuits? Because if this was your kid your first instinct would be to take a bat to the skulls of the idiots that swam away from untrained youths so they could have a chat (or fix a leak-whatever). A lawsuit is a civilized way to try to even the score. Forget the standards etc because no agency lets you leave "discover" divers on their own. I was amazed to see that their are stats for fatalities in "Discover Scuba". WTF. Nobody should ever die in shallow water with an instructor up their butt (barring the occasional heart attack or stroke). Anyway this sad event shouldn't be a springboard for blaming anybody but the two lax idiots that caused it.

 

[scagrotto]

If PADI standards were as lax as the permanent anti-PADI crowd here claims -they would be long out of business.

Perhaps a few people think their standards are that bad, but that's not the discussion you and I have been having. Maybe you should reread the transcript to remind yourself where it started

you move on to cigarettes...

I only brought it up because of your straw man argument about "verdicts bankrupting the corporate franchise". I simply used it as an obvious example that counters your assertion that a lack of verdicts or being big and successful somehow guarantees that the product is without significant flaws, but you seem to feel compelled to change the terms of the argument.

But since you seem to miss the fundamental problem in equating hamburgers and scuba diving

Well, that explains a lot. Maybe it would help if you realized that I've been discussing the relevance of product quality to business success?

It's called being a per-se dangerous activity, the assumption of risk is an inherent component that just doesn't seem to clear your conscious mind

I completely understand that participants are assuming risk. I'll freely admit that I don't recognize why that would be relevant to this discussion or to PADI's responsibility to provide a proper standard of care to participants in a DSD "experience" or those paying for an introductory course of instruction in that dangerous activity.

Wonder how they got 70% of market share? They must be doing SOMETHING right.

They are doing something right. Maybe it's offering a great product, or maybe it's because of successful marketing. Kind of like McDonald's.

I can find plenty of flaws in PADI from their sale driven philosophy to the need to tighten and adapt standards.

So you think some of their standards are lacking, yet they still manage to be "the most successful dive franchise in the world bar NONE. PERIOD." ? Go figure.

===

In fact, if you had the researcher sensitivity to check your sources and READ the paper quoted in this drivel, you would have seen that 2.898 fatalities per 100,000 dives is the total number of fatalities in the 1989-1998 period

I suppose you're trying to say that's the overall rate for all training, and not the rate for DSD? And you're referring to the report published by DAN as "Recreational Diving Fatalities Workshop Proceedings" and containing an article authored by Drew Richardson and entitled "Training Scuba Divers: A Fatality and Risk Analysis"? The one where page 133 has a table covering 1989 to 1998 that reports a fatality rate, specifically for Discover Scuba Diving, of 2.898 per 100,000 dives based on 11 fatalities in 379,579 DSD dives?

Is that the report you think he should have read?

i should have indicated that Jim used an argument ad hominem

Speaking of ad hominem attacks, have you considered critiquing what Jim has written instead of his publishing method?

 

[Omisson]

Perhaps a few people think their standards are that bad, but that's not the discussion you and I have been having. Maybe you should reread the transcript to remind yourself where it started



I only brought it up because of your straw man argument about "verdicts bankrupting the corporate franchise". I simply used it as an obvious example that counters your assertion that a lack of verdicts or being big and successful somehow guarantees that the product is without significant flaws, but you seem to feel compelled to change the terms of the argument.



Well, that explains a lot. Maybe it would help if you realized that I've been discussing the relevance of product quality to business success?


I completely understand that participants are assuming risk. I'll freely admit that I don't recognize why that would be relevant to this discussion or to PADI's responsibility to provide a proper standard of care to participants in a DSD "experience" or those paying for an introductory course of instruction in that dangerous activity.


They are doing something right. Maybe it's offering a great product, or maybe it's because of successful marketing. Kind of like McDonald's.


So you think some of their standards are lacking, yet they still manage to be "the most successful dive franchise in the world bar NONE. PERIOD."

?

I didn't forget what started the thread - or what we were discussing.

But there is no equation between hamburger franchise successes and scuba teaching success- if there was a ski or boxing analogy - THAT would be sufficiently similar to warrant relativity. It's about dangerous sport training and standards - both cigarette and hamburger sales don't cut the mustard and I KNOW you know better.., why are you arguing absurdities?

As for Jim LaPenta, I always liked his posts, and I think he has a good writing style.... but as someone who has been diving a lot longer, and who has far more technical experiences, and legitimate published material (albeit in other fields) , I resent it when he chooses to over reach and infer personal academic research validation when as far as I can tell its all armchair and anecdotal. I don't care that he's self published, I do care his assertions are without true peer review and are without any scientific methodology behind them. His flippant and persistent anti-PADI rants are precisely the reason I mistrust his ability to be unbiased.

The fact that I would IMPROVE padi standards does not preclude that they generally have a good system and quod eras demonstrata.., there market success shows it. Good things can still be improved. My whole point was, the anti padi crowd is using this case as an example of padi being all screwed up but because something falls in the standards doesn't make it ok.., judgement is supposed to play a part.., leaving juveniles under water in a DSD is a bad idea... Bad vis only makes it worse judgment on the instructors part.., not PADI's...

An confidential settlements are the only reason that many plaintiffs ever get a dime... They can't be used to prove or disprove liability.,. Anyone who tries to is flying blind.

 

[clint@uniquescuba.com]

Self-publishing to cut the middle man for an established author is generally a business decision. Self-publishing for a first-time author with no professional experience in the field is most likely determined by the fact that no established publisher would consider the material worth publishing. Medium of distribution is irrelevant.

Not that I read her books, but E. L. James started off by Self-Publishing and posting her writing on the internet. After her content was out there and grew a fan base she was picked up by a publishing company.......

Geeez, get with the times grandpa

 

[flots am]

My whole point was, the anti padi crowd is using this case as an example of padi being all screwed up but because something falls in the standards doesn't make it ok.., judgement is supposed to play a part.., leaving juveniles under water in a DSD is a bad idea... Bad vis only makes it worse judgment on the instructors part.., not PADI's...

Changing the inst:student ratios to 1:1, 2:2, 2:3, 2:4, etc. would allow safely handling any single emergency. I think this is a good idea and they should do it.

However, regardless of what PADI "allows", any competent professional should have known before the dive ever started, that it's impossible to be in two places at once, and that any emergency would leave uncertified divers alone in the water, and should have brought along an extra Instructor/DM/Divecon.

Standards aren't perfect. Bad Things can happen if you exploit insufficient minimums, but that's not an excuse for doing it.

However as much as I dislike PADI's "dive tourist" philosophy, this is about 95% the instructor's fault for having a dive plan that was defective by design. It is simply not possible to safely handle an emergency with multiple participants and one instructor, and this was knowable before anybody ever got wet.

flots.

 

[demed]

Not that I read her books, but E. L. James started off by Self-Publishing and posting her writing on the internet. After her content was out there and grew a fan base she was picked up by a publishing company.......

Geeez, get with the times grandpa[/COLOR]

Snowqueens icedragon of Twilight fanfiction?