Photo Equipment, puppies, Elvis and how much money should you spend on equipment

[hammerhead man]

I firmly believe in what bvanant discusses in his post, that is "art is whatever you think it is." I am not an artist, I will never be an artist, but I do know what I like, and it is to that end that I attempt to get pictures that meet my expectations. What I do need to learn are techniques that will allow me to get shots that that I will enjoy, and what will be enjoyable to my non-diving friends.

You see a lot of discussion on these boards regarding what equipment do I need to buy that will allow me to get great pictures; however, as noted by puffer fish, it's not the equipment that is the most important factor, it's the person behind the camera that will determine the quality of the picture. It would be great to see more discussions on techniques used by individuals to get "great" pictures. However, even in the tips and techniques forum, most of the discussions are related to photography equipment. Personally, I have enjoyed reading this thread.

Regards,

Bill

 

[Longshot270]

Good story Puffer Fish.

I've had a few arguments with "photographers" that think because their camera is worth more than mine it is automatically better. Well if that is the case then I may not be a photographer but I've got some great pictures. Just for kicks I've sent them into various photo contests and seems other people like them too because I've placed in them. I couldn't care less what somebody else thinks of my pictures, they are only good if I find satisfaction in knowing I took them. To me the story behind them is usually more interesting than the picture itself.

I cant wait until I get a camera that can do decent pics under water. My current one can't even take pics above water in a well lit area.

 

[vladimir]

But if you have to see some other image, before you evaluate the one in front of you, you are missing the point.

I agree. That's why I took pains to separate the art from the artist. Somebody can accidentally create art--that doesn't make him an artist. The art stands on its own, the artist needs to have mastered his craft to be worthy of the name, in my opinion.

 

[Warren_L]

I'm with Bill on this. Maybe I'm not smart enough to understand, but I do know what I like and what I don't like. Whether it is "art" or not then is really somewhat irrelevant.

However, what still is somewhat at odds in my mind is that if "art is in the eye of the beholder", how is it possible for one to define what is art and what isn't.

"Back to the issue of how you know if it is art, it starts with the photographer taking that image to say something...if it is just a picture using a method or of something big, it is not art"

When you label something as not "art", you are assuming then it is not trying to convey a message, and is just to illustrate a method or technique. How do you know that it is not trying to convey a message? Since each individual has his or her own interpretation of any image and what that image might convey or represent, who is to say it is "art" or not "art"?

You also allude to those with credentials being the ones to define art. "I would never say I know the answer, but I do know how Minor and Edward Weston and Ansel Adams defined it, it unless someone with better credentials comes up with a better definition, will use that."

Does that mean that unless you have credentials you're not able or as qualified to define art? If art is truly in the eye of the beholder, credentials would be irrelevant as each individual would decide for him or herself.

Maybe someone more trained in art can clear this up. I clearly do not have the credentials.

 

[Jax]

Wow -- I must be missing some history here, because I don't understand the snarking!

I took away that it is not great / fabulous / state of the art equipment that takes great photos.

. . . that a photographer who wants to take great photos needs to communicate what s/he saw by capturing it in the photo.

. . . and that those that feel it necessary to compare / criticize equipment or technique or . . . are (my words) compensating for their short - comings . . .

 

[davelew]

There was a famous 20th century ceramic artist in Japan named Shoji Hamada. At one point in his life, Hamada moved to a town called Mashiko, which was famous for having some of the worst clay in the country. Hamada then spent the rest of his life making hauntingly beautiful pottery out of truly awful lumpy clay half full of sand and pebbles.

People like Minor White with his Brownie, or Hamada with his lumpy clay, can make great art with substandard equipment. They can make a piece of art work with the limitations of their equipment, make the limitations yet another phrase in the image.

Nobody here is denying that world experts can take great underwater photos with cheap cameras. Of course Minor White could take great photos with a Brownie. Of course Hamada could make museum quality pieces out of untreated river clay. However, for a beginner, it's a lot easy to start with better equipment and better clay -- making great images with a Brownie or out of Mashiko clay is best left to the true experts.

 

[bvanant]

Wow -- I must be missing some history here, because I don't understand the snarking!

.

This goes back to the rather long and totally hijacked thread about opinions from real life or some such title.

Bill

n

 

[AussieByron]

Puffer your a walking contradiction.

Puffers quotes in colour:

Odd, because there are no fish living in the Northern gulf that I do not have clear, infocus images of, with a point and shoot. And as several places that use my images have noted, some of them they cannot find any slr images of.You have images of every living fish in the Northern Gulf, even some that dont have any SLR images of. That has to be unique in anyones book.

Art truly is in the eye of the beholder... so one persons communication may not ever reach anyone....

Keeping in mind that my "art" may or may not mean anything to you, but two of the following images are craft images, and two are art images

But all I have seen in your images is some nice craft work

Here you show that you can provide art images (sorry I just see some happy snaps) but when it comes to other peoples images.................well just some nice craft work. I call that an Art Critic and a Contradiction in what your trying to say.

My point was about people that make judgements about others gear and technics

To quote some of Puffer's Judgements about others gear/Techniques in previous thread showing more Contradictions:

10 years ago, there were no good point and shoot camera's, so everything you stated was true, but that has not been the case for several years now...and even after lots of testing, thousands of examples, the SLR crowd is still living in what they want to be true over what is true.

Regarding image quality, you need to take a class in optics


But use a middle priced SLR, and the story is very different. Say one has a D300 (nice camera, but not the best sensor)....it would only be as good as the best point and shoot up to around F11-F16, and would be worse above that.

But for reasons I don't really understand, DSLR users seem to have to make their camera's better and bigger and more impressive than they really are.

I like black background images also, but they tend to be over done by Dslr users, where every image is one, or images like your manta's, where one does a "photo technic" of having the sun behind the fish.



To quote you from above
But if you have to see some other image, before you evaluate the one in front of you, you are missing the point.

Referring to your comment "I guess it is too much to ask, but I wish that anyone using a camera do some homework, learn a bit about the technology and it's good and bad points and actually compare identical images, and then make judgements." Isnt that another Contradiction.

Puffer, I too like to comment on images that are pleasing to my eye. Unfortunately I can't on your examples so far.

What is the story with the name dropping? You have told many times that you where a Student of Minor White's......... does this reflect in any of your examples (easpecially underwater).......? You might have been a student but did you pass the class?

My repeated posts about "Arm chair Experts" is directed straight at you. You have waffled on with genuine bias towards point and shoot cameras and how technically sound they are compared a DSLR. You stated that you have classes in photography, that you sell your images and even that you have taken a photo of every living fish in the Northern Gulf (do you know them all by name) and that you have studied under a famous photographer.

To quote your own comment "But keep this in mind, for every real photographer out there, you can expect to hear from 10 Elvis painters... they tend to be loud, and are convinced that equipment makes the photographer". From my experience a real photographer is taking photo's and displaying them to be seen by anyone and everyone. Not sitting infront of text book or monitor talking about other peoples work and to afraid display their own images as they may be criticised.

Techincally knowing and Techincally doing are two completely different things.

The whole point of photography is taking a image from that moment in time and sharing it with others. If your not sharing that image what was the point of taking it in the first place.

Below is my link to my flickr as I like to share my photo's to who ever wants to look at them. You can Criticise or comment if you like. You may find some that are pleasing to your eye and maybe even call Art. The fact is I display my photos and I am not afraid to do so. When I talk about photography I always try and provide examples of my own work either good or bad to inform others.

As the story goes a picture is worth a thousand words.

Regards Mark

 

[Jax]

Wow. That's just plain ugly. What's the point?

 

[Jax]

I find Puffer's post quite on target.

In golf, skeet, rifle shooting, pistol shooting, skiing . . . on and on, there are always people that keep buying 'better and better' equipment, instead of learning to shoot / play what they have well.

Good thoughts.