"Piece of Paper Syndrome"

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Please try to stay on some line of logic. Where I got my training has no bearing on the fact that I sometimes (completely legally by the way) allowed an unqualified person to fly my aircraft.

I thought narcosis was supposed to fade rapidly once you ascended.
 
When you're flying 36" off your flight lead's wing, I don't care how close the controls are, you better be one heck of a bad@$$ to recover things in time. OR, you better be good and teaching the noob how to stay out of trouble. Good thing I'm both. :crafty:

Well, as opposed to walking back to the coffee maker in a C-5, where the controls can be pretty far away. Then again, 36" off the flight lead's wing in a C-5 would probably be a pretty stupid move to begin with.

:shocked2:

Ever see the photos of the parasite fighter program they were studying in the 50s, where the fighter plane would hook-up wingtip to wingtip with a B36 in flight? Talk about expecting the pilots to have some mad skills and the huevos to match!

But, did anyone have instructor certs to teach that skill?
 
I didn't start the thread here. I merely answered one that was started here. And I've been careful to say that I don't advocate, as a rule, getting scuba instruction from someone that is not certified.

I simply answered the OP's question honestly by agreeing that it is POSSIBLE to obtain good instruction from someone who does not possess a piece of paper.

But I'm glad to see that you've given up on your position. Indicated by your transition to arguing something completely separate from the original discussion.

Of course it's possible, that is obvious, and I don't recall anyone saying it wasn't.

The OP didn't ask if it was possible. The OP deliberately provoked a heated debate by recounting the story of how he used a rebreather with minimal training and then denigrated all instructors - and formalized instruction itself - by scornfully referring to it as a "piece of paper".

This is an old tactic, but effective nonetheless, and anti-intellectualism has a long and honored place in the annals of American demagoguery.

Naturally, with the red meat tossed into the arena, all the dogs rushed in, hackles raised and teeth bared, and proceeded to bite each other, as the OP watched gleefully.

Such is the power of the clever troll, that even those who know they are being manipulated often cannot resist.

I haven't given up on any positions, but nice try...:no:
 
Interestingly, I have the same experience piloting C-130's. So I can relate to that as well. (Also of interest. My call sign is Psycho. I only tell my dive buddies that after we've finished diving!)
 
Of course it's possible, that is obvious, and I don't recall anyone saying it wasn't.

The OP didn't ask if it was possible. The OP deliberately provoked a heated debate by recounting the story of how he used a rebreather with minimal training and then denigrated all instructors - and formalized instruction itself - by scornfully referring to it as a "piece of paper".

This is an old tactic, but effective nonetheless, and anti-intellectualism has a long and honored place in the annals of American demagoguery.

Naturally, with the red meat tossed into the arena, all the dogs rushed in and proceeded to bite each other, as the OP watched gleefully.

I haven't given up on any positions, but nice try...:no:

It doesn't change the fact that you came after me for something I neither said or implied.
 
It doesn't change the fact that you came after me for something I neither said or implied.

If I did that I am truly sorry and I apologize. As I said before, I respect you and I enjoy your posts. Please forgive any offense I may have given, it was not intended.
 
That's fair. **Handshake** Group hug. What were we talking about?

:cool2:
 
Vinegarbiscuit, I don't thing that there is adequate information to reach the conclusion that you did. That may be the case, that may not be the case, the little bit of existing evidence that there is (he happened to live) argues against you.

As far as Steve is concerned, he seems to need to get out of the nursery more to a place where there are competent people who responsibly undertake difficult and dangerous tasks. He appears to be spending too much time watching infants play in their prams while being an apologist for a bankrupt and depauperized system that not everyone requires to survive or to enjoy diving.

With all due respect - and I both respect and really enjoy the posts you make on SB, so I hope you don't take offense - I must humbly beg to differ. I do agree that we aren't in position of every single fact surrounding the OPs dive, but he's related enough facts to draw a conclusion that his behaviour was ill-advised.

Fact: A bloke engaged in a dive beyond his capabilities. He engaged in a trust-me dive using a piece of equipment that is deadly to the untrained.
That's why CCR students never receive their whole kit upon purchase: a crucial piece of equipment, such as the counter-lungs, are sent directly to the instructor, to prevent the student from 'experimenting' with it and dying. Even once trained, they dive knowing that while a carefully-checked and perfectly functioning unit is essential, having one breeds complacency (the 'Pyle Paradox'), and they must assume their rebreather is going to malfunction at any moment. Did the OP dive with that assumption, and was he trained to save himself and bail himself out if anything went wrong? No. Because he didn't spend weeks training, drilling and practicing with ain instructor in order to obtain basic familiarity with the unit.

Fact: The fact he lived is testimony that learning from qualified professionals is not always necessary?! No, it's testimony that he was lucky.
Now, I too have encountered remarkable divers without the formal training to undertake the dives they're regularly undertake. One, an acquaintence back home in NY, has a YMCA OW card (which he displays to anyone that asks and even some people that don't with the greatest glee!), but he was/is one of THOSE wreck divers in the Northeast, who participated in expeditions to the Doria and so on. But then - there were precious little C-cards back then, and much of what we know today is thanks to the likes of divers like him (and, very sadly, his dead buddies). I have the utmost awe and respect for divers who dived back when there were precious few rules - dammit, they helped make the rules! - and who literally cobbled together equipment to undertake those dives. But we don't live in that world anymore. We have access to tried-and-true equipment and (if you shop around) experienced, insured instructors to teach us how to use that equipment to plan and execute incident-free dives. Mentors help us build on that experience, and for that, they're absolutely invaluable. But there's an important distinction between mentors and instructors.

As to the comments about Mr. Lewis: I must respectfully disagree with you there, too. As one of the most competant and skilled instructor-trainers in the world today, I would venture that he's eminently qualified to watch folk undertake difficult and dangerous tasks and assess whether they're being undertaken responsibly. The consequences of doing otherwise are too great. Firstly, it's the individual's decision whether or not to be in the water with a person they deem as unsafe and putting themselves - and others - at risk. Maybe he's done that on a few occasions and made himself unpopular as a result, who knows? Secondly, scuba is a self-regulating sport, because for the most part, its practitioners dive safely and responsibily. But if enough people have serious accidents and get hurt, scuba as a self-regulating sport may be a thing of the past.

Time to get off my high horse, I reckon, and back to work!
 
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Did you let them land for you as well... thinking no as that is the difference between trained and untrained.. may want to rethink your point and example.

Really

I am so glad I chose quote reply and expected the poster's comment to apply here, it would have made more sense then... The individual related that he as a jet fighter pilot had on numerous occassions allowed an untrained individual to fly the aircraft in level flight.
 
Just food for thought:

A trust me dive can also include training dives with an instructor since you are trusting that he is as capable as the piece of paper states.
 

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