"Piece of Paper Syndrome"

[Thalassamania]

Vinegarbiscuit, I don't thing that there is adequate information to reach the conclusion that you did. That may be the case, that may not be the case, the little bit of existing evidence that there is (he happened to live) argues against you.

As far as Steve is concerned, he seems to need to get out of the nursery more to a place where there are competent people who responsibly undertake difficult and dangerous tasks. He appears to be spending too much time watching infants play in their prams while being an apologist for a bankrupt and depauperized system that not everyone requires to survive or to enjoy diving.

 

[Herk_Man]

Diving a rebreather without proper training is, in fact, incredibly dangerous. There are numerous cases of dive professionals dying in pools because they tried a rebreather without training.

Is it possible for someone without certification to be a good teacher or instructor? Sure --but of course we won't know because that person was never verified by a certifying agency.

I do know this, we have certifications for a reason, and the reason is safety.

In my opinion, you are thinking about this completely wrong.

Jeff

Thanks for making my argument for me. Well done. He made a PERSONAL CHOICE based on his opinion on the competence of the guy he decided to go diving with. And he knew there were risks involved, which he accepted by deciding to go. And he learned a lot from a guy who didn't possess a "piece of paper." Which is what the OP was trying to discern.

Thanks for being on my side.

 

[Herk_Man]

That is very dangerous thinking --training is about safety, that's why you need instruction. You get certified, the piece of paper, so you can show you have been trained, nothing more. This illogical ranting against training is like saying there is no benefit in education.

I find it disturbing.

Go back and actually read what I wrote. I am absolutely in favor of training and getting it from certified instructors. I merely pointed out what the real NEED for it originated from. I DO NOT NEED a piece of paper to strap on scuba gear and go diving. And there are lots of people that DO NOT POSSESS pieces of paper that can teach me all I need to know to do it safely. I'm living proof of that.

So obviously there is a different NEED for the paper. That NEED is driven purely by liability.

Captain Don, the original dive operator in Bonaire from over half a century ago ran a successful and safe dive operation on Bonaire without any "pieces of paper." But he didn't have any lawyers breathing down his neck either.

 

[Mike Boswell]

Vinegarbiscuit, I don't thing that there is adequate information to reach the conclusion that you did. That may be the case, that may not be the case, the little bit of existing evidence that there is (he happened to live) argues against you.

As far as Steve is concerned, he seems to need to get out of the nursery more to a place where there are competent people who responsibly undertake difficult and dangerous tasks. He appears to be spending too much time watching infants play in their prams while being an apologist for a bankrupt and depauperized system that not everyone requires to survive or to enjoy diving.

I'm stumped. I usually understand and enjoy your posts, but - what does this mean?

 

[Herk_Man]

Politics as usual...

Analogies thrown around, straw man points made and refuted, then a man who is actually a professional in the analogy being used tells them they're being reactionary boobs and they attempt to discredit his arguments.

He's a fighter pilot, he has more than 500 dives. Could someone just issue him a piece of paper already so people will listen to him?

I personally hate this piece of paper mentality we live in these days. My dad was a special forces Marine in the 60s and 70s, dove the Red Sea, all sorts of sniper and survivalist training, and he taught me a HUGE number of things before the age of 10 that this nanny-state mentality won't even allow me to learn at 30. (obviously, I could for the low low price of $XXX.95...)

I see time and time again people on this board saying, "Dive within your limits, and do what you're comfortable with."

He's been diving with his buddy for 40+ years! His buddy is a professional on a level that 99% of instructors will NEVER be! I'd say he was comfortable, and rightfully so.

Maybe the detractors here won't be happy until they're paying $100 a year for a state issued punch card for SCUBA dives... Or maybe they just want to charge someone to take their class, I don't know. But there's something other than common sense and good intellectual risk assessment driving the responses here.

Spot on baby! I make my own choices and I accept the risks involved. I try not to pass that on to anyone else that has not made the same choices.

And to calm the nanny-staters here a bit, I'm glad I finally got certified. Not only does it open a lot more doors for me (although my fake C-card never failed me) but I did learn a couple of things I would say were useful. And having an instructor (yes, one with a piece of paper) pat me on the back and tell me well done after all of my dives (I didn't tell him about my prior sins until class was over) gave me a new level of confidence in my abilities. Something I was grateful to have when I started leading dives with my whole family in tow.

Bottom Line: I really don't advocate, in a broad spectrum way, doing things the way I did them. Most people don't have the right mentality to plop backwards off a boat into 60' of water in the Gulf of Oman having NEVER taken a breath off of a regulator. The time it took for me to get down to 800psi and thumb the dive attests to that. But I also won't tell someone they aren't free to make their own choices when they aren't doing something illegal.

 

[Herk_Man]

Granted, in a fighter plane, it's rather difficult to get far enough away from the controls, that you can't quickly take the stick back and recover things before it becomes a catastrophe.

Unfortunately, not all dive buddies stay that close.

When you're flying 36" off your flight lead's wing, I don't care how close the controls are, you better be one heck of a bad@$$ to recover things in time. OR, you better be good at teaching the noob how to stay out of trouble. Good thing I'm both.

 

[Herk_Man]

Perhaps his name is a clue: "Gambit" = ploy, stratagem, scheme, ruse.

However, troll or not, he has obviously touched a nerve with many here, to have engendered so much debate.

There is no doubt that many self-trained divers are great, that many laymen are good teachers, or that diving experience is valuable. Certifications certainly don't make up for experience or talent, and are no guarantees of excellence.

Does it follow, then, that formal education isn't needed? Should we all just get a friend or acquaintance to teach us to dive? Can we just forget about diplomas and certifications, and just take a person's word that they are competent?

I can tell you this: I would not dive with a person who had such a low regard for education and training that he scorned it as being merely a "Piece of Paper". Such a person might be a great diver, but the odds are much higher that he is an arrogant fool.

A wise person, educated or not, respects learning and takes advantage of the knowledge gained by others.

Just sayin'...

Mike, again, you are missing the point here. The discussion is not whether having a piece of paper is good. I think we all agree that getting trained to be an instructor is a good thing and for the most part, you should get your scuba training from someone with a piece of paper.

The discussion is, can you get good safe instruction from someone WITHOUT a piece of paper. The answer is a resounding yes. But whoever chooses to do this has to understand they are assuming some inherent risks. Those being, unknown potential gaps in the instruction they are receiving and the potential consequences that might occur from not knowing what was not covered.

Bottom Line: A piece of paper is not required to gain good instruction on proper use of diving equipment.

 

[Mike Boswell]

Mike, again, you are missing the point here. The discussion is not whether having a piece of paper is good. I think we all agree that getting trained to be an instructor is a good thing and for the most part, you should get your scuba training from someone with a piece of paper.

The discussion is, can you get good safe instruction from someone WITHOUT a piece of paper. The answer is a resounding yes. But whoever chooses to do this has to understand they are assuming some inherent risks. Those being, unknown potential gaps in the instruction they are receiving and the potential consequences that might occur from not knowing what was not covered.

Bottom Line: A piece of paper is not required to gain good instruction on proper use of diving equipment.

Okay, YOUR "point here" is that getting your training from someone "having a piece of paper is good, but not required".

This is your message to new divers and those interested in learning scuba diving on the Basic Scuba Discussions Forum.

MY point is, that is irresponsible advice.

Herk Man, I enjoy your posts and respect you, but in this case I think you need to reconsider your position.

 

[Herk_Man]

I didn't start the thread here. I merely answered one that was started here. And I've been careful to say that I don't advocate, as a rule, getting scuba instruction from someone that is not certified.

I simply answered the OP's question honestly by agreeing that it is POSSIBLE to obtain good instruction from someone who does not possess a piece of paper.

But I'm glad to see that you've given up on your position. Indicated by your transition to arguing something completely separate from the original discussion.

 

[iztok]

When you're flying 36" off your flight lead's wing, I don't care how close the controls are, you better be one heck of a bad@$$ to recover things in time. OR, you better be good and teaching the noob how to stay out of trouble. Good thing I'm both.

I am sure you got this skills from someone w/o paper to prove (s)he can teach you these skills, right?