"Piece of Paper Syndrome"

[boulderjohn]

I knew that as I was posting it, but if we were getting instruction from someone who wasn't actually certified as an instructor, would we know BEFORE the SNAFU in getting our cert cards?

If it is a SNAFU, as in my case, it is easily rectified and no big deal.

If it is intentional on the part of the instructor, you have a case of fraud on your hands, and I am sure a lawsuit would be possible. An instructor who teaches a class knowing that in another week or so the student would learn that it was all a hoax would have to be a complete idiot.

On the other hand...

There was a recent case where a student took a PADI referral to a non-PADI resort and tried to get certified. In this instance, it was signed off by someone who was not a PADI instructor, and the student was shocked to learn that he could not therefore get certified. Again, that is a case of fraud, and the last I heard the dive operation was having to deal with the resulting heat.

 

[boulderjohn]

I knew that as I was posting it, but if we were getting instruction from someone who wasn't actually certified as an instructor, would we know BEFORE the SNAFU in getting our cert cards?

One more thing...

If it is PADI, just ask for the instructor number. You can then contact PADI and get his or her status.

 

[eelnoraa]

I didn't read the entire thread, just from the OP, I think OP's friend is incredibly inresponsible for bringing a diver with only recreation diving skill into cave diving with rebreather & 1hr deco. And OP did a "trust me" dive. This is dangerous and should NOT be encouraged.

 

[Mark Michaud SELAUSAR]

I'm only half way down page 2....

Yeah, but sometimes it takes me a while

If he isn't a troll, he will likely be a statistic

 

[Hoomi]

One more thing...

If it is PADI, just ask for the instructor number. You can then contact PADI and get his or her status.

That was kind of my point. How many of us even asked for that? Or did we just assume the instructor was certified because they were referred through a dive shop?

Don't get me wrong - my impression is that, in the U.S. at least, any shop owner with more than two brain cells to rub together is going to verify the status of any instructors they have giving classes through their shop. For the most part, it's probably a safe assumption to make that our instructor is certified. However, if it's plain old common sense for the shop to check credentials to protect themselves, shouldn't it be the same for us to check?

That was the point of the anecdote about the guy with the suspended driver's license. The company assumed he had a valid license, but no one in the years he was there took the time to verify it. Not company management, not his co-workers, and not the people who entrusted the care of their loved ones to this company. It was essentially an honor system, depending on the honesty of the employees regarding their driving status. The trouble with an honor system is, some people just don't honor it.

 

[boulderjohn]

That was the point of the anecdote about the guy with the suspended driver's license. The company assumed he had a valid license, but no one in the years he was there took the time to verify it. Not company management, not his co-workers, and not the people who entrusted the care of their loved ones to this company. It was essentially an honor system, depending on the honesty of the employees regarding their driving status. The trouble with an honor system is, some people just don't honor it.

Again, that's where scuba is different. When PADI rejected my student's certification because of the SNAFU, it was the shop they notified, and the shop notified me. There is no waiting for the guy to get a ticket--the instructor simply cannot certify anyone, and that comes out immediately.

 

[mikemill]

Yeah, but sometimes it takes me a while

If he isn't a troll, he will likely be a statistic

Nah, Walter was just trying to show how much better than us he is because his settings have more posts per page than the default.

 

[Mike Boswell]

I came to a conclusion Gambitt is a

Perhaps his name is a clue: "Gambit" = ploy, stratagem, scheme, ruse.

However, troll or not, he has obviously touched a nerve with many here, to have engendered so much debate.

There is no doubt that many self-trained divers are great, that many laymen are good teachers, or that diving experience is valuable. Certifications certainly don't make up for experience or talent, and are no guarantees of excellence.

Does it follow, then, that formal education isn't needed? Should we all just get a friend or acquaintance to teach us to dive? Can we just forget about diplomas and certifications, and just take a person's word that they are competent?

I can tell you this: I would not dive with a person who had such a low regard for education and training that he scorned it as being merely a "Piece of Paper". Such a person might be a great diver, but the odds are much higher that he is an arrogant fool.

A wise person, educated or not, respects learning and takes advantage of the knowledge gained by others.

Just sayin'...

 

[InTheDrink]

Perhaps his name is a clue: "Gambit" = ploy, stratagem, scheme, ruse.

However, troll or not, he has obviously touched a nerve with many here, to have engendered so much debate.

There is no doubt that many self-trained divers are great, that many laymen are good teachers, or that diving experience is valuable. Certifications certainly don't make up for experience or talent, and are no guarantees of excellence.

Does it follow, then, that formal education isn't needed? Should we all just get a friend or acquaintance to teach us to dive? Can we just forget about diplomas and certifications, and just take a person's word that they are competent?

I can tell you this: I would not dive with a person who had such a low regard for education and training that he scorned it as being merely a "Piece of Paper". Such a person might be a great diver, but the odds are much higher that he is an arrogant fool.

A wise person, educated or not, respects learning and takes advantage of the knowledge gained by others.

Just sayin'...

I don't believe formal education is strictly necessary. However, being able to handle yourself in whatever situation you find yourself in certainly is.

Learning is incremental. I can see plenty of ways to safely go from OW to rebreather/cave/whatever without formal training with a mentor - but in small,tiny incremental steps and with good guidance & mentoring.

However, to go from OW to RB in one step without any idea how to deal with any non-normal circumstance is plain silly. The proverbial trust me dive.

J

 

[Deep-6]

Gambitt, I understand the point your trying to make. But, we all learned in our first classroom session, that it is "NOT SAFE" to dive beyond your training. This lesson is basic from day 1. Now, you go public with how you did a deco dive beyond your depth limit without an instructor and without any formal training. Did you expect attaboys for that? What's posted on this site is also viewed by divers with far less experience. Young new divers who want to "push the limit."

I've noticed that many times on SB when we've discussed diving accidents, that there are a few repetitive themes..,
1. Diver did a dive they were not qualified to do.
2. Diver surpassed their NDL because they were at a depth they shouldn't have been at.
3. Diver used equipment they were unfamiliar with.

Dude, by your own admission you never did a deco dive prior to that, you never been that deep prior to that, you went over a type of equipment you had no experience with just the night before. Sounds like another incident just waiting to happen. I'm glad you made it back safe, I really am. But I'm not going to congratulate you on doing, which in my opinion, is something universally stupid. Furthermore, it's improper to minimize the importance of formal training when taking on an advanced, or in this case, a tech dive. Especially given the wide range of audience that views this forum.

On a further note, last time I checked, PADI was not certifying 3 year olds. So you can keep your negative comments about PADI out of this one. Personally, I dont think you're in any position to be putting anybody down.

Sorry if this seems harsh, I'm just calling it as I see it.