Point-for-point on what's missing from OW Classes

[sheck33]

'someone' mentioned the PADI IE requires the instructor candidate to hover for 5 min

really?

hovering for 5 lousy min without doing anything else HARDLY constitutes 'complete' mastery of bouyancy :wacko:

give me a break....jeez

and something else....i get VERY suspicious when someone calls oneself a 'PADI expert'

 

[MikeFerrara]

sheck33 once bubbled...
'someone' mentioned the PADI IE requires the instructor candidate to hover for 5 min

really?

hovering for 5 lousy min without doing anything else HARDLY constitutes 'complete' mastery of bouyancy :wacko:

give me a break....jeez

and something else....i get VERY suspicious when someone calls oneself a 'PADI expert'

It is not a requuirement for that an instructor candidate hover for 5 min. If an instructor candidate is asked to hover the purpose is to test the ability of the candidate to demonstrate the skill to a student. The purpose is NOT to test the ability of the instructor to control buoyancy while task loaded. The candidates diving ability is not being tested beyon the ability to administer PADI programs.

Do you see the difference? I have said over and over that one can become an instructor without any training in dive technique beyond OW and AOW. The rest of the required training has to do with rescues, supervising and teaching. Why do you think so many instructors first get thinking about trim when they get on this board? Why do you think there are so many that look like crap in the water? Whatever diving technique you don't get in OW there is a good chance you won't ever get it.

 

[sheck33]

I see the difference, it is worse than i thought it was

 

[DiverBuoy]

gedunk once bubbled...
By the way, nice Darth Vader look you got goin with your profile pic.

Neil, I did some gamma, contrast, and brightness adjustments to your photo, while trying not to wash it out too far. I've attached it here if you'd like to "upgrade" your profile.

 

[DiverBuoy]

sheck33 once bubbled...
'someone' mentioned the PADI IE requires the instructor candidate to hover for 5 min

really?

hovering for 5 lousy min without doing anything else HARDLY constitutes 'complete' mastery of bouyancy :wacko:

give me a break....jeez

and something else....i get VERY suspicious when someone calls oneself a 'PADI expert'

It is much easier to be in control of your buoyancy when moving. As for expert my point was PADI calls instructors that. It has nothing to do with Ego. I certainly don't think of myself as an expert in diving in the meaning that you are speaking of. I'm a baby in scuba! I've already admitted several times over the last 5 months here on Scubaboard that I've been humbled many times over. We have some truely GREAT divers on this board. If they can't even call themselves experts ...

That said, PADI pros are considered PADI experts by PADI herself - we didn't give ourselves that distinction. Anyway, there is much more to learn about scuba and the mechanics of diving beyond what PADI teaches. DIR is a perfect example of that. I've discussed with PADI the need for them to continue to improve their courses and their materials. At least 5 Course Directors I know agree with this too. IMO - the best place to start is Advanced Open Water - rewrite it from scratch<g>.

 

[TCDiver1]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


It is not a requuirement for that an instructor candidate hover for 5 min. If an instructor candidate is asked to hover the purpose is to test the ability of the candidate to demonstrate the skill to a student. The purpose is NOT to test the ability of the instructor to control buoyancy while task loaded. The candidates diving ability is not being tested beyon the ability to administer PADI programs.

Right on Mike and that is the question isn't it? How effective are Padi programs?

I guess i could put myself into the group of instructors you are talking about who never pushed horizontal perfection for trim. Yet, the near 200 students i have taught or helped teach the "Padi way" seem to be doing fine.

Anticipating your next question, i would guess close to fifty percent of them are relatively actived divers, say getting wet 30 to 50 times a year. Maybe 10% more than 50 to 100 dives a year with the rest less than 30 a year or none.

I'm not arguing that skills such as trim shouldn't be included. But i am saying effective training can be done without it. That has been proven out over ten years of teaching involvement for me. But it surely doesn't mean improvements can't be made.

It is not as bad as some on this board make it sound in our area. At least not that i have seen.

 

[neil]

Since there's been so much discussion of teaching proper trim on this thread, I'd just like to say that tonight in my university OW class I gave "The Trim Lecture". For the first time ever, now that I've seen the light.

It was easy and took all of 15 minutes with questions from the audience. I drew a diver diagram indicating where the buoyancy was and where the lead was (standard weight belt). When asked, the students clearly understood the problem and came up with solutions. I brought different kinds of weights and straps and a BC with ballast pockets to show them (don't have a backplate yet) and explained backplates too. We discussed tank placement, weight placement, and back vs. BC type inflation. (Forgot to talk in depth about tank bouyancy, but it's never too late to add knowledge).

The real challenge is going to be implementing this knowledge in the pool. The store I'm running this group through has no gear to adjust weights with so I'm going to have to supply all the straps and cllip weights myself.

Why did I wait so long? Cuz I was a WEENER!

Neil

 

[TCDiver1]

neil once bubbled...
Since there's been so much discussion of teaching proper trim on this thread, I'd just like to say that tonight in my university OW class I gave "The Trim Lecture". For the first time ever, now that I've seen the light.

It was easy and took all of 15 minutes with questions from the audience. I drew a diver diagram indicating where the buoyancy was and where the lead was (standard weight belt). When asked, the students clearly understood the problem and came up with solutions. I brought different kinds of weights and straps and a BC with ballast pockets to show them (don't have a backplate yet) and explained backplates too. We discussed tank placement, weight placement, and back vs. BC type inflation. (Forgot to talk in depth about tank bouyancy, but it's never too late to add knowledge).

The real challenge is going to be implementing this knowledge in the pool. The store I'm running this group through has no gear to adjust weights with so I'm going to have to supply all the straps and cllip weights myself.

Why did I wait so long? Cuz I was a WEENER!

Neil

Neil,

First, kudos to MikeF for pointing out the error of your ways .... okay error of my ways too.:embarr: Don't feel too bad Neil, do you feel like your previous students were not well trained? I don't. More like current students will benefit from this added knowledge. I've been passing it on to previously certified students also.

Try to get a rig or two set up so you can demonstrate horizontal and vertical trim. The light really goes off for the students then.

Ankle weights on the tank valve is a great start but will only add about 1.5 lbs each, they are readily available at most LDS's.

The problem i had was not enough trim weights to trim out all the students at the same time. It caused some frustration on the instructor and students part after it was explained that horizontal was the way to go. Just be wary of that if you don't have plenty of trim weights to begin with.

Anyway Neil, your not a weener. Mike F is the weener. I thought we agreed your were a "hoser." By the way, you can call me the "rookie.":tease:

 

[MikeFerrara]

gedunk once bubbled...
Neil,

First, kudos to MikeF for pointing out the error of your ways .... okay error of my ways too.:embarr: Don't feel too bad Neil, do you feel like your previous students were not well trained? I don't. More like current students will benefit from this added knowledge. I've been passing it on to previously certified students also.

Only instructors who were good to begin with will make an efort to get better.

Try to get a rig or two set up so you can demonstrate horizontal and vertical trim. The light really goes off for the students then.

I have video of both that I show in class in addition to diagrams on the board.

Ankle weights on the tank valve is a great start but will only add about 1.5 lbs each, they are readily available at most LDS's.

The problem i had was not enough trim weights to trim out all the students at the same time. It caused some frustration on the instructor and students part after it was explained that horizontal was the way to go. Just be wary of that if you don't have plenty of trim weights to begin with.

You can also thread some hard weights onto the tank bands. If I have a full class (6) I run a little short on trim weights also (depending on the size and build of the students)

 

[neil]

Gedunk,
No, I don't think all my previous students were badly trained. I've always stressed horizontal trim, I just never really got into the mechanics of it, which to some is the same as saying I never taught it.

As for gear, I have ankle weights (BTW, heavier anlkle wts. are available, I have some 3 lb.ers) but I've been scavenging and buying cam buckle straps. It should be quicker than undoing the BC cam strap each time, plus you can put the lead even higher than the tank strap.

"Only instructors who were good to begin with will make an efort to get better."

Mike, thanks for the compliment, and I think it applies to more than a few of us here.

Neil aka "Hoser"