Point-for-point on what's missing from OW Classes
- Thread starter MikeFerrara
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OP
One day I had an advanced class of one at Haigh quarry. We had trouble doing the buoyancy work we were trying to do because we kept getting silted out. We had a OW student that someone lost WALK (on the bottom) over and sit on the platform we were using until someone finally came by and retrieved them. We watched another advanced class doing a rope search. The instructor hid a small object for them to find RIGHT ON THE PLATFORM. The students still couldn't find it because they silted things out so bad and kept getting fouled in the line. Later we tried to do a night dive. Boy, where do I start here? First we were going to follow a line that leads out to a rock crusher. 4 divers passed us from behind leaving a silt trail about 20 ft wide and 5 ft thick. We rose above it and followed above and behind out of the trail. These guys were all decked out in dry suits and some had pony bottles. The point being they weren't OW students or anything. By the time we got to the rock crusher it was totally engulfed in a cloud of silt. We headed back only to have a group of two do the same thing to us again. We ended our dive early and when we surfaced my student asked me why nobody could stay out of the bottom. He asked why they were all flutter kicking with their fins pointed at the bottom. He has no desire to go back and niether do I (except I have to teach at these places).
What exactly is "not that bad"? IMO, it's appalling and there is no excuse or justification. These students are paying for nothing. They are being cheated and subjected to all kinds of standards violations and violations of the intent of the standards.
What exactly is "not that bad"? IMO, it's appalling and there is no excuse or justification. These students are paying for nothing. They are being cheated and subjected to all kinds of standards violations and violations of the intent of the standards.
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Welcome to the level of instruction provided by instructors with **** for experience.
WW
IMO - it's got less to do with class time experience on the part of the instructor and more to do with exclusion of content, available content that wasn't used. And students who essentially throw out what they've learned.
I'd liken it to a cookie cutter. If you have a square mold every cookie produced from that mold is square. When a grandparent passes the cutter down through the generations to their progeny guess what cookies the grandchild will produce? Uh, you think round, no think again.
How does that illustration relate to scuba? If you don't teach all the material, if you don't tell students to stay off the reef (and show them how), to avoid dragging gear and to be streamlined (and show them how), to respect the environment, the aquatic life, and to stay neutrally buoyant throughout the entire dive - then how will the students do these things properly. If an instructor doesn't learn from their bad student product and review the course to include next time the things left out of the agency's program, if you don't make any changes that will result in better divers then what can you expect. What kind of students do you think that type of instructor will produce after they become "experienced", after their 1000th cookie cutter class? Uh, you think good divers no think again - bad divers.
If an instructor continues to leave out key points from the course, doesn't stress critical material, leaves out any of the building blocks, or continually repeats inaccurate material, continues to set a bad example, passes bad student divers, and ignores student problems again and again - anyone with half a brain will tell you a thousand classes won't make you any better.
PADI has made it possible for an instructor teaching their very first class without any assistance to produce good divers. I believe it because I've seen it, tried it, lived it ... and it works. The PADI OW program can produce quality safe divers. The fundamental issue as to why we have bad PADI OW divers - is not the material, it is an instructor who isn't applying the material, even if that is on their first class or their thousandth one.
I disagree with many here that the PADI OW program in particular has left anything essential out, there is enough on streamlining, buoyancy, weighting, aquatic respect, and flexibility for local diving environments to produce a quality BEGINNING diver for any recreational setting. There has to be some responsibility if the components were all there and the student doesn't keep diving the way they were taught. Those who drive a car did whatever it took to look good long enough to get a driver's license. So why then are our roads filled with dangerous, illegal, driving? So what, for 4 check-out dives a student looks great, follows everything they were taught to do. Then on the first dive without their instructor - they throw everything out the door. When it comes to driving we have cops. But it isn't practical to police dives. So maybe empower professionals to give out diving tickets <LOL>. Education is the key to increasing awareness. But there is more than one way to educate a diver. The next time you see bad diving embarrass the crap out of someone. Who knows they'll either be so offended they will quit or clean up their act. Every diver out there can make a difference in this regard. Make some waves spread the word.
Are there things the OW program doesn't cover - OH YES many, many things. And I can tell you that PADI doesn't have enough speciality programs, not even close, to cover all there is to know about diving. I've seen that for myself in technical circles and commercial circles. But as far as BEGINNING OW recreational divers are concerned - "it's in there". AND If all the resources which are available in the program are used by the instructor and if everything is practically applied - the program will produce a quality BEGINNING diver. Will these students need more education - don't we all? Will the learning ever stop? No. Every diver needs to "keep diving" and "keep learning".
I'd liken it to a cookie cutter. If you have a square mold every cookie produced from that mold is square. When a grandparent passes the cutter down through the generations to their progeny guess what cookies the grandchild will produce? Uh, you think round, no think again.
How does that illustration relate to scuba? If you don't teach all the material, if you don't tell students to stay off the reef (and show them how), to avoid dragging gear and to be streamlined (and show them how), to respect the environment, the aquatic life, and to stay neutrally buoyant throughout the entire dive - then how will the students do these things properly. If an instructor doesn't learn from their bad student product and review the course to include next time the things left out of the agency's program, if you don't make any changes that will result in better divers then what can you expect. What kind of students do you think that type of instructor will produce after they become "experienced", after their 1000th cookie cutter class? Uh, you think good divers no think again - bad divers.
If an instructor continues to leave out key points from the course, doesn't stress critical material, leaves out any of the building blocks, or continually repeats inaccurate material, continues to set a bad example, passes bad student divers, and ignores student problems again and again - anyone with half a brain will tell you a thousand classes won't make you any better.
PADI has made it possible for an instructor teaching their very first class without any assistance to produce good divers. I believe it because I've seen it, tried it, lived it ... and it works. The PADI OW program can produce quality safe divers. The fundamental issue as to why we have bad PADI OW divers - is not the material, it is an instructor who isn't applying the material, even if that is on their first class or their thousandth one.
I disagree with many here that the PADI OW program in particular has left anything essential out, there is enough on streamlining, buoyancy, weighting, aquatic respect, and flexibility for local diving environments to produce a quality BEGINNING diver for any recreational setting. There has to be some responsibility if the components were all there and the student doesn't keep diving the way they were taught. Those who drive a car did whatever it took to look good long enough to get a driver's license. So why then are our roads filled with dangerous, illegal, driving? So what, for 4 check-out dives a student looks great, follows everything they were taught to do. Then on the first dive without their instructor - they throw everything out the door. When it comes to driving we have cops. But it isn't practical to police dives. So maybe empower professionals to give out diving tickets <LOL>. Education is the key to increasing awareness. But there is more than one way to educate a diver. The next time you see bad diving embarrass the crap out of someone. Who knows they'll either be so offended they will quit or clean up their act. Every diver out there can make a difference in this regard. Make some waves spread the word.
Are there things the OW program doesn't cover - OH YES many, many things. And I can tell you that PADI doesn't have enough speciality programs, not even close, to cover all there is to know about diving. I've seen that for myself in technical circles and commercial circles. But as far as BEGINNING OW recreational divers are concerned - "it's in there". AND If all the resources which are available in the program are used by the instructor and if everything is practically applied - the program will produce a quality BEGINNING diver. Will these students need more education - don't we all? Will the learning ever stop? No. Every diver needs to "keep diving" and "keep learning".
ScubaDan
Guest
Agencies that are training OW divers all they want is to train them for safety But to tell you the truth Im a new diver and I know I need a lot more training to feel safe. I know better because this board has made me aware of my awful diving. I trained with SSI and I have friends that are PADI, all the same thing they dont teach you proper trim and buoyancy. My instructor talk about it but gave no real buoyancy lesson to help in that area. If they would have taught trim and buoyancy we could have had a lot clearer OW.
I will admit to silting up the bottom, I even try not to. I have to either teach my self proper trim and buoyancy or perhaps try to find an instructor that cares enough to teach me about those things, and around here that will be real hard. Why is it when I go to a query and my LDS tells me to get there early or the vis will go down? Well I would say because of all the divers that have improper trim and fin technique. If I was horizontal I would not silt out nearly as much and then combine that with proper fin technique there would be no silt at all. If everyone was taught that way my LDS would not have to tell me to go early or vis wont be as good.
In the short time I have been diving I can see most agencies including SSI and PADI fall short in there BOW program. Why leave this for some diver that thinks there ready for the OW and never takes another class. Why should they? They can get there gear and start diving, there is no incentive to get more classes. I hear there are very few operators that even ask for an AOW card. SSI doesnt even have a trim and buoyancy specialty. Most of PADI AOW cards dont include the PPB or at least thats the way it is around here.
Someone mentioned earlier you can even become an instructor without grasping the concept of proper trim and buoyancy. Now tell me thats not the agencies, if they allow these instructors that dont even know proper trim and buoyancy or dont teach it to there students, then the agencies are at fault for allowing this to happen. Remember it is the agencies turning these instructor out.
You have those like DiverBouy that think Trim and Buoyancy cant be taught in BOW, well that is the agencies instructors talking and with that thinking we will never turn out good divers.
I will admit to silting up the bottom, I even try not to. I have to either teach my self proper trim and buoyancy or perhaps try to find an instructor that cares enough to teach me about those things, and around here that will be real hard. Why is it when I go to a query and my LDS tells me to get there early or the vis will go down? Well I would say because of all the divers that have improper trim and fin technique. If I was horizontal I would not silt out nearly as much and then combine that with proper fin technique there would be no silt at all. If everyone was taught that way my LDS would not have to tell me to go early or vis wont be as good.
In the short time I have been diving I can see most agencies including SSI and PADI fall short in there BOW program. Why leave this for some diver that thinks there ready for the OW and never takes another class. Why should they? They can get there gear and start diving, there is no incentive to get more classes. I hear there are very few operators that even ask for an AOW card. SSI doesnt even have a trim and buoyancy specialty. Most of PADI AOW cards dont include the PPB or at least thats the way it is around here.
Someone mentioned earlier you can even become an instructor without grasping the concept of proper trim and buoyancy. Now tell me thats not the agencies, if they allow these instructors that dont even know proper trim and buoyancy or dont teach it to there students, then the agencies are at fault for allowing this to happen. Remember it is the agencies turning these instructor out.
You have those like DiverBouy that think Trim and Buoyancy cant be taught in BOW, well that is the agencies instructors talking and with that thinking we will never turn out good divers.
If you want to avoid silting up the water get your buoyancy and weighting down by applying what you've already been taught in OW.
You can avoid silting the bottom by staying further off the bottom, being properly streamlined with no dangling components or hoses, having proper buoyancy, proper weighting, and finning from the hip with your whole leg and the knee only slightly bent - not bicycle kicking.
With proper trim you will change your attitude in the water and be more comfortable, it will help you fin better too. But if you don't have even the basics of buoyancy down or if you're improperly weighted both of which you were taught in open water - well then redistributing your weights and repositioning your tank - you'll still be faceplanted into the silty bottom, oh yeah but you'll be perfectly horizontal <LOL>.
BTW - please don't make false statements ScubaDan I never said buoyancy can't be taught in open water - it is a performance requirement.
You can avoid silting the bottom by staying further off the bottom, being properly streamlined with no dangling components or hoses, having proper buoyancy, proper weighting, and finning from the hip with your whole leg and the knee only slightly bent - not bicycle kicking.
With proper trim you will change your attitude in the water and be more comfortable, it will help you fin better too. But if you don't have even the basics of buoyancy down or if you're improperly weighted both of which you were taught in open water - well then redistributing your weights and repositioning your tank - you'll still be faceplanted into the silty bottom, oh yeah but you'll be perfectly horizontal <LOL>.
BTW - please don't make false statements ScubaDan I never said buoyancy can't be taught in open water - it is a performance requirement.
ScubaDan
Guest
False statement! hardly, remember I included trim in there and anyone that has followed this thread nows that you have said that it does not belong in ow class that's what the PPB is for.
OP
They read about it but they aren't being made to actually do it during their training dives. Most of the students I see have enough weight to sink a battle ship and it's all piled on their waist. The instructors just sink em to get through the four dives. Why don't the agencies do something? I know for a fact they know it goes on.
These problems are nothing new. When I first opened the shop I had a DM who had been DMing for a long time. He was trained by an instructor who had been teaching for more than 20 years. One day he explained to me that we had to keep the class moving faster to help students not to sink! I said the answer was to get them neutral and trim. He no longer works with us.
Finning from the hip with the whole leg will result in a silt trail even if you are 10 ft off the bottom especially if you aren't horizontal! This one of the first pieces of BS that needs to go away! A horizontal diver using good finning technique can swim as close to a silty bottom as they want and you will never know they were there.
If you are over weight you can manage it if it's in the right place. When my 104's are full and I'm slinging a couple extra tanks that are full I am way heavy. No problem. There is more to it than telling everyone it's all in the amount of weight because it isn't.
What causes divers all the buoyancy trouble is not being horizontal. They sink when they stop kicking. Their depth control is dependant on speed and it shouldn't be.
A while ago I spent some time trying out a sidemount rig I put together. I tried to dive it with al 80's. To make a long story short I was way foot heavy, not trimmed at all. If someone would have seen me I would have looked like it was my first dive ever. Nobody can do this well without being trimmed. NOBODY. It doesn't take long to learn good buoyancy control but it does take a long time to learn DEPTH control when you have to be negative to move foreward withouy surfacing like an unbalanced and untrimmed diver.
OP
Dear DiverBuoy and all,
Read what ScubaDan wrote above and give it some thought. He did not just decide to NOT use what he was tought because he wasn't tought it in the first place. He contracted an instructor, agency, shop and DMS's in good faith and he gets told it's his fault he silts. Sorry I don't buy that. Why would someone want to silt if they know how to avoid it?
That's why I don't embarass divers on purpose (as DB suggested be done). They don't know any better or at least they don't know what to do about it. I have put a few instructors on the spot though. I'm sad to say that even many instructors are just repeating what they were tought and it's wrong. Where the hell is ths ageny QA.
Instead of defending it or blaming the student just FIX it. It's not that hard.
Read what ScubaDan wrote above and give it some thought. He did not just decide to NOT use what he was tought because he wasn't tought it in the first place. He contracted an instructor, agency, shop and DMS's in good faith and he gets told it's his fault he silts. Sorry I don't buy that. Why would someone want to silt if they know how to avoid it?
That's why I don't embarass divers on purpose (as DB suggested be done). They don't know any better or at least they don't know what to do about it. I have put a few instructors on the spot though. I'm sad to say that even many instructors are just repeating what they were tought and it's wrong. Where the hell is ths ageny QA.
Instead of defending it or blaming the student just FIX it. It's not that hard.
OP
My First Rescue
I was a DM student helping with a class of two. It was a rough class. The students were up and down and all over. We were at Blue Water Scuba (Ithink it's called) in Alabama. It was Feb. and the water was 60 ish so students had full wet suits and alot of weight. One student finally just gave up and quit. The other was certified. After she received her new temp card she was going to go for a dive with us. Her instructor took me to the side and warned me that she was still having some trouble with buoyancy control. The dive plan had us staying above 50 ft. As we move along the wall she was going deeper and deeper. I signalled her to watch her depth. She had trouble locating her depth gauge because it was not secured and the instructor had clipped her camera to it. The camera was pos and had her console floating above her. She stopped swimming to looked for it and when she stopped kicking she dropped like a rock. There was an instructor with us who was above and couldn't get down because of having ear trouble . We were being led by a DM who was way ahead and had no clue. By the time I cought up to her (it was a rough weekend for my ears also) she was in all out PANICK at 65 feet. I brought her to the surface fighting and scratching the whole way. At one point she spit out her regulator. She didn't hold her breath because she was SCREAMING. Well, I got her to the surface uninjured. The only casualty was MY EARS.
It wasn't untill sometime later that I realized why this happened. Looking back on it it still makes me mad as hell. The instructor BTW has been teaching and a shop owner for almost THIRTY YEARS and is a PADI MASTER INSTRUCTOR. If you ask her, she will tell you that she strictly follows standards and that they work.
Anyone care to comment on the MANY things that were wrong here?
I was a DM student helping with a class of two. It was a rough class. The students were up and down and all over. We were at Blue Water Scuba (Ithink it's called) in Alabama. It was Feb. and the water was 60 ish so students had full wet suits and alot of weight. One student finally just gave up and quit. The other was certified. After she received her new temp card she was going to go for a dive with us. Her instructor took me to the side and warned me that she was still having some trouble with buoyancy control. The dive plan had us staying above 50 ft. As we move along the wall she was going deeper and deeper. I signalled her to watch her depth. She had trouble locating her depth gauge because it was not secured and the instructor had clipped her camera to it. The camera was pos and had her console floating above her. She stopped swimming to looked for it and when she stopped kicking she dropped like a rock. There was an instructor with us who was above and couldn't get down because of having ear trouble . We were being led by a DM who was way ahead and had no clue. By the time I cought up to her (it was a rough weekend for my ears also) she was in all out PANICK at 65 feet. I brought her to the surface fighting and scratching the whole way. At one point she spit out her regulator. She didn't hold her breath because she was SCREAMING. Well, I got her to the surface uninjured. The only casualty was MY EARS.
It wasn't untill sometime later that I realized why this happened. Looking back on it it still makes me mad as hell. The instructor BTW has been teaching and a shop owner for almost THIRTY YEARS and is a PADI MASTER INSTRUCTOR. If you ask her, she will tell you that she strictly follows standards and that they work.
Anyone care to comment on the MANY things that were wrong here?
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