Poor Students, or Poor instructors?

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Rambling thoughts, opinions and examples. It's gotten pretty easy to bash training agencies, with PADI taking the most heat, but I find such taunting misplaced.

1) Every event noted, including reef bashing, is covered during the PADI course. Failure to learn these basic principles lies either with the instructor or student, but the standards are there and should be taught and reinforced.

2) Yes, PADI creates poor instructors. I doubt this is unique to PADI. Even the YMCA, with very high standards, used to generate instructors with as little as 50 dives. I was apalled at the lack of skill and experience at my own IE, let alone the inability to teach.

Poor instructors are unleashed every day to teach students. It's up to angencies, resorts and LDS's to ensure that students receive proper training and safety. Quality control is paramount to any system.

My LDS required that I teach as a team with every other instructor in the shop before being let loose on students. Every DM must apprentice with each instructor and be evaluated before becoming a shop DM. I can guarentee you we have no incompetent instructors or DMs.

3) I believe PADI standards are more the enough to allow for the safe participation in recreational scuba diving if properly taught and learned.

I tell students that we cover two types of skills, the first being those that they must master for every dive, including gearing up, mask clearing, buoyancy. The second type consists of dealing with various emergencies, including OOA situations, equipment failure, entanglements. To say one is more important than another is moot, they all need to be learned.

My LDS has the advantage of an indoor pool, plus we have many staff DMs. Not only does the student have to master each skill, but we take to time or use the time to have the student practice repetitively after mastery demonstration. When I'm doing the next skill one on one, the DM will practice previous skills with the students.

Four dives aren't much at the lake, but beside the skill demonstration, each dive includes a tour with dive 1 being nothing but a tour. This becomes invaluable to the student. The difference in buoyancy between dives 1 and 4 are unbelievable. Cheating the student out of this part of dive robs them of a valuable lesson, but I've seen it happen. Students are encouraged to do excursion dives and post completion dives toward AOW. This is a big opportunity to increase their learning, not just "marketing".

Logging their dives is a requirement. This is the real world application of tables. Many have forgotten how to do their tables since the classroom. They don't leave the lake without knowing how to do their tables.

4) AOW is a misnomer. AOW doesn't make you an advanced diver. I hate the term, but that's what we got. Taking this immediately after OW is a natural extension of the OW course. It allows time to focus on various aspects of diving only briefly covered during OW. As cheezy as it might seem to experienced divers, isn't it better that they begin a life of diving with 9 training dives than 4? Sure, AOW doesn't mean they are ready to conquer the world, but again, the difference in skill mastery is tremendous from dives 1 to 4 and even better if you can get them to dive 9. Remember, it's a learning CURVE. The steep part of the curve is early. Better to have them training under an instructor for those dives, eh?

5) I don't care what agency or what standards of OW training you follow, you will always have students who barely make it, and then ignore, forget and plain refuse to follow what they've been taught. Reef crashers come in all experience levels and all levels of malice from accidental to reckless disregard. I know which ones I hate the most.

No one leaves my class without proper training, understanding and meeting standards. Does this mean I wouldn't be potentially embarassed by their actions after they are gone and on their own?

It's easy to point fingers and make snap judgements. Do we want to hunt down the driving instructor of every lousy driver we see on the road?

Enough rambling.
 
PSP,

I don't have any political agenda that I'm trying get across on here. I am not affiliated with GUE (or anyone else) in any way, but it's blatently obvious that their primary objective is quality and efficient training. TDI and ANDI are as guilty to caitering to the dollar as the recreational agencies.

To all,

As far as the recreational agencies go, they all know their instructors (on a whole) are putting out mediocre students, yet they do nothing. Why? Money. To suggest that just the instructors and shops are to blame for all of this doesn't cut it. Virtually everything about modern lifestyle is about speed and affordability. Speed and scuba simply don't mix well. Some blame has to be placed on moronic students who ignore what they were taught, but I think many of these could be weeded out by the instructors right off the bat if there was incentive to do so.

Is it possible to push relatively decent students through in the time allotted in standard OW courses? Maybe, but only if you trimmed down some of the less irrelevant stuff and over emphasized the truly critical stuff. If you're going expect "mastery" of everything in OW, then they'll have to double (at least) the time of the class (which only the agencies can mandate). If history and economics are any clue, I would be shocked if the agencies willingly decided to take a finacial hit like that (not to mention the outcry from the shops and instructors).

It's going to require a mandate from the agencies to fix all of this, that is obvious.

Mike

PS. I'm not attacking just PADI (most all agencies, actually) or all instructors. There are plenty of good instructors who have a conscience that speaks louder than greed/money.
 
i have to agree with the last post, after all we were all trained by an instructor from one agency or another (i hope) the instructor or agency do not make or break a diver, the diver's do that themselves what ever bad habits they develop they do so by themselves or by watching others. after all all agencies have standards for the training of instructors it's not the agencies that make good or bad instructors it's the instructor themselves. if you don't think an agency has strict enough standards then write your own and start your own and then see if every instructor you train and certify uphold those standards on every dive with every student. as instructors all we can do after open water certification is encourage students to continue to dive and continue their education.
 
Ultimately, it's the agencies responsibility to ensure they are putting out quality/competant students and instructors. It is ultimately up the agencies to impose such standards as to ensure this occurs. If those standards include doubling the time of the classes, yearly observation/testing of it's instructors, some sort of an incentive program, or whatever else, then it's ultimately up to the agencies to do what it takes (which I believe they won't do).

No one said the solution(s) were easy. Competition and money rule this industry, and safety, all too often, is left out flappin' in the breeze.

Mike
 
Man oh man, while diving on some boat dives in the Gulf o Mex., we saw a wide variety of skill levels. We were doing 80' dives with kids that looked like they were 8 years old. That concerned me quite a bit. Many of these people were from other contries and I have no idea what there certification practices are in their country. A few of the divers were from a particular far east southern hemisphere country (figure it out!); they were hell in fins as far as the reefs and aquatic life was concerned. At one point one of them was pounding on the shell of a crab with his light. They sat on, drug over, broke off, plain left a trail of destruction everywhere we went. I called this to the attention of the dive masters because I dont speak their language. I dont know if care of the reefs and marine creatures are even a consideration where they come from, it sure didnt seem like it.

On one of our last dives, everyone was wanting to dive a wall, myself included. Well we got our wish. Two boat loads dropped on an 80' wall with many other divers already there. One by one people started bailing out till all that was left was myself, an older couple and one divemaster. During the course of the dive, doing swim throughs, Oh did I mention the three knot current!, a kid from out of no where landed on my back and proceded in with our now small group, just in front of me. It was evident that this kid was separated from his group, scared to death, his head was on a swivel, his tank was out of his bc trailing behind. I was affraid to get too close to him, he was on the way to a real panic. Meanwhile my few numbered group was leaving me behind. I got someone to take care of him as I drifted out of sight.

My point being, on the first example, I dont think world wide we have the same lesson plans in our training.
Second, we mostly are responsible for ourselvs. That boy was not forced down there, he wanted to be there. He was the only one on that trip that truly knew his level of expertise. Certification is only the most basic of skills, it is up to us as thinking humans to practice diving skills and become life time students in a dangerous sport or suffer the consequences. If these consequenses are fully explained nothing more can be done.
 
The important thing to remember about diving is that it wouldn't exist without it's customers. It is like any other business. Double the standards and you must double the cost. That would place diving out of the reach of most people. What you have to do is to find a happy medium and operate from there. The incidence of dive accidents is very low. It has become one of the safest of the extreme sports. So, you give them a BASIC course and offer more advanced ones for later. Everyone in this world has to have money. That is why all of the agencies (ALL of them-even GUE) try to sell something.
 
I agree, Sharpanu. No one has a problem with anyone selling something, so long as as it not at the expense of safety (such as deep air courses) and competant students/instructors. As soon as an agency adopts an attitude or program that is primarily interested in bringing in students (ie. money) and allows safety to run second place (or worse), then there's a real problem.

Mike
 
Originally posted by Se7en

The ridiculous extention of your logic is a diver than I am aquainted with. He was encouraged by his instructor to continue doing courses consecutively after OW. He is now a PADI "Master Diver" with a total of 27 dives (including pool training) - with all but 6 of those dives occuring under the same pier in a sheltered bay, with an instructor and DM in attendance. do you think the instructor has now picked up on all his 'missed skills' and he is a diver we should all aspire to be?
:)
:eek:

Mike

I think that you (or your friend) might want to look into contacting PADI about this. To my understanding you MUST have 60 logged dives to become a PADI DM. If he was certed before this then the instructor broke the rules. Your friend shouldn't be a Dive Master yet. (He may be a very good diver but he has not yet met the requirements)
 
Dive Master (a professional certification) and Master Diver (a non-professional certification) have different dive requirements. I had to show 100 dives before my instructor would sign me off on Divemaster. A Master Diver certification only requires so many of the "Specialty Certs" (like Deep Diver, or NitrOx Diver) alluded to in earlier post.
 
have been stated and listed in this thread....I agree wholeheartedly with one comment to have a master organization that does the final checkout dives or exam, or something to prove that the orginal instructor, organization has done their job... Somewhat like drivers license. Driver trainingand then the state or province oversees the final test. I know this opens us up to "big brother", watching, but this may eliminate the backbiting and bickering amongst the agencies. And brings those that are lacking in their standards up on the carpet....

Regarding the instructors quiting after an average of three years...burn out ?? Yes maybe, however if the compensation for the instructor was higher perhaps it would help keep good instructors in the business...That said perhaps it is the good ones that stay in and the so-so are the ones to leave early.

I am a referee with Ontario Minor Hockey Association and I see the same thing ( I appreciate we are not dealing with life and death situations), there is a lot of turnover there because of lack of pay and respect...perhaps better pay would keep the newer instructor/referee in the business to become a longterm person\
 
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