Prayer is useless?

[H2Andy]

Besides, how could a lump of cosmic junk that stuck together by chance possibly be wrong?

tell that to Bubba in the big house when he wants to get amorous with you



but yeah.... enlightened self-interest is really the way to go. have you noticed
that most criminals are dumb as dirt? reasonably intelligent people figure
out better ways to live their lives with their best interest in mind
(this usually entails treating others as you would like to be treated).

but i would agree with you that we need a higher code (a criminal code will do)
of behavior that all society members need to be held accountable to.

 

[berty]

The problem with 'Gods standards of right and wrong' is that they must be interpreted by mortal men.

 

[MikeFerrara]

tell that to Bubba in the big house when he wants to get amorous with you



but yeah.... enlightened self-interest is really the way to go. have you noticed
that most criminals are dumb as dirt? reasonably intelligent people figure
out better ways to live their lives with their best interest in mind
(this usually entails treating others as you would like to be treated).

but i would agree with you that we need a higher code (a criminal code will do)
of behavior that all society members need to be held accountable to.

Well, some criminals are dumb but others are captains of industry or leaders of nations. They might still be dumb but that doesn't always make them easy to stop.

Treating others as you would like to be treated...hmmm...That may be exactly what ol Bubba in the big house is doing.

 

[MikeFerrara]

The problem with 'Gods standards of right and wrong' is that they must be interpreted by mortal men.

Can't be any harder that figuring out some of the laws on our books. The supreme court can't even figure them out. Either the law is in plain english and they say it isn't or it isn't and they say it is...well often split along party lines of course.

 

[Potapko]

ah... well.... this again is open for debate...

there's quite logical explanations and answers as to how the books that make
up the Bible came to be. but you have to be open to the possibility that
it's not the inspired word of God.

i understand that you can't be open to that possibility, so those explanations
and answers are not available to you.

however, they are available to others who don't make the same
assumption going into the research.

I think you are absolutely correct to a certain extent. EVERYBODY begins research with assumptions. Those who say they don't are either lying or self decieved. So depending on an individuals assumptions, it will be harder, but not impossible to convince them otherwise.

I didn't think you could keep from responding.

For those interested in doing the research Josh McDowell wrote an excellent book called "Evidence that demands a verdict" He does give his own conclusions of course but mostly quotes historical sources. Began his research in order to prove Christianity false, but as many others who have tried he became a strong believer in the process.

The truth does not fear honest scrutiny. Honest being the key word

 

[ShoalDiverSA]

... However, the Bible is not why I believe there is a God. I know there's a God because I know Him.
...
Prayer is how we talk to God. Talking with God is how one gets to know Him, not how not how one fills their Christmas stocking.
...

This post really summarises (what I believe is) the Christian perspective well.

It is not about irrefutable proof. If it were, we could prove our beliefs and people could accept and adopt them without faith.

My personal beliefs come from a relationship that I have with my Creator. It is based upon that and nothing more. Sure, I could probably pick apart the Bible word by word. But I don't need to, because I know my God. Through that relationship and (what I believe is) His Word, I know what His wishes are for me. This guides how I work, treat my wife, raise my kids, declare my taxable income, etc.

You cannot analyse the Bible without God. It exists because of Him.

I am also an Engineer and I have, through my walk, investigated things that didn't "gel" for me in The Word. They have stood up to my scrutiny, which is good enough for me :05: .

I wish I had more time to read this thread, do some research and make some meaningful contributions.

Cheers,

Andrew

 

[ReefGuy]

I sure haven't noticed this. A lot of them are, but a lot of them are very intelligent and a lot of them are very clever. You simply wouldn't believe what some of these people can come up with. For instance, an inmate was recently caught and showed LE how to manufacture a firearm (complete with sealed cartriges for ammo) from stuff any inmate can get their hands on.

Many people are criminals due not to lack of intelligence, but lack of self control (or irrepresible urge for complete control)

BTW, why is this thread not a violation of TOS?

have you noticed
that most criminals are dumb as dirt?

 

[ShoalDiverSA]

...
BTW, why is this thread not a violation of TOS?
...

It probably should be treated as such. IMO it seems to be resulting in divisive discussion, which is not in the spirit of SB (in general!). Very little good can come of it in the end, I fear. Quite a bit of hallowed ground on both sides of the divide is being walked over roughshod.

1 Corinthians 2:14-16 (New International Version)

14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16"For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?"[a] But we have the mind of Christ.

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

Cheers,

Andrew

 

[Lisa0825]

Of all the posts I've read in this thread this is the most interesting one. You seem to believe that there's some kind of god, that he may judge us, that there might be some kind of heaven but no hell.

I lean towards the presence of an afterlife. I would say the opposite is not hell, but an absence of an afterlife. Perhaps those who could truly be called evil would actually lack a soul, and then cease to exist after death, as opposed to going to some pit of fire. I do not think that anyone would be punished for having the "wrong religion."

Is this a good and just god? What are his standards like and do you think he, as a just god, would let us know what they are? It doesn't seem just to give us a test and not tell us what it takes to pass it.

I think it is more like a creator, rather than an active player/judge/.

What kind of second rate god would let the people I know into heaven on their own merit without help?

My beliefs tend toward God as a creator, possibly objective observer, not a judge/director/etc. I'm not sure what heaven actually is. I prefer to say I believe in some kind of afterlife. Whether someone needs "help" to get in just not a part of my perspective on it.

It's sort of like this, if I see you crossing the street while messing with your cell phone and about to step in front of a buss should I say or do something? After all you appear completely comfortable and confident in your beliefe that it's now safe to cross the street. You have your truth. You have faith in that truth and have not asked me for anything. It could appear judgemental of me to come off as thinking that your truth might not be true (because of the buss that I see comming). I say it's sort of like that but not exactly. When you get run over by a buss you usually only spen a few moments getting run over. What if you were going to have to spend eternity under that buss and were very close to running out of time to find a new truth (one that takes the buss into consideration)? It might not be a "hollier-than-thou" thing though because I know that left on my own I'd end up under the buss too. Now lets take the case where I'm wrong and the buss isn't really going to hit you. Interupting your phone call to warn you really is unnecessary but it doesn't look like it from where I'm standing. Can you blame me for trying?

It's very condscending to say all other religions are wrong except mine, and I am just trying to do you this huge cosmic favor by showing you the error of your ways. Living in the Bible belt, I get bombarded with this junk constantly. Some Christians in the US think they are so persecuted, when they spend so much energy nagging others to make them believe the same as them. Maybe those of us on other paths would like some freedom from that.

 

[Soggy]

I think it is more like a creator, rather than an active player/judge/.

I see this as a completely reasonable position that, while I remain agnostic, I could potentially accept based on the reasonings of Aquinas in his arguments about causality in his Second Way.