Prayer is useless?

[Green_Manelishi]

I agree with you in that, but I don't agree that the only alternative to meaningless existance is the Judeo-Christian god. I personally believe in a meaningful and ordered universe, but not in a deity per-se. If there is a creator, or "higher power", I'm not convinced that it is self-aware, and I therefore do not concern myself with its worship. I do believe that prayer can be powerful, as can any ritual or magic in which deep belief is held, but I think that that the fundamental nature of that power is psychological reenforcement. I do not believe that praying for someone who is unaware of the prayer would have any effect on the person prayed for, although it could be transformative for the person praying.

I believe that my life is a kind of energy and that it, like the matter my body is composed of, can neither be created nor destroyed but may change forms. What matters to me is making the most of this form while it lasts, not striving for reward to be received when I am in a form that may or may not exist in the future.

My beliefs, of course, are my own. I'm happy that you are likewise secure in the beliefs you hold.

Uh Matt,

Please explain how a legitimate diety or higher power with creative abuility could not be self-aware. Please don't tell me about computers; a computer is a created object
(ironically by a higher power ... man, or woman, as the case may be)

I repeat my statement that what one believes is relevant. There are not many ways of "doing it right" (even in diving) if there is a higher power setting the rules and standards. There is one way, His way, and all else is wrong and being wrong carries consequences.

Rock on. Dive well. DIR or not.

 

[Doc Intrepid]

I believe that board members who feel compelled to start threads regarding prayer on a scuba-diving board should stifle themselves.

I don't go to boards that discuss theology and start threads relating to the benefits of helium for planning wreck dives to depths between 250' and 300' fsw.

It would be rude.

It would also quite likely be against their ToS.

It astounds me that people would come to a board designed to discuss scuba issues and begin a discussion regarding the benefits of prayer.

Other than finding myself at 250' with 50 minutes of deco remaining and having a deco regulator explode on me, I fail to see the connection between scuba diving and prayer.

No offense to anyone of any faith in any country on the planet, but keep your threads on ScubaBoard at least remotely related to scuba issues. I don't give a ratsass whether you think prayer is useless, useful, moderately beneficial, harmful, offensive, inoffensive, humorous, necessary, or glorious. It doesn't belong on ScubaBoard.

[/RANT] :doctor:

 

[Potapko]

Prayer is helpful for the individual and is only helpful if it motivates that person to do whatever they need to do. If it provides hope for that individual when they are too weak to believe in themselves or to cope with lifes events, then it is helpful. It is also helpful for others if they know people are praying for them because it gives them hope etc....

This is the only benefit of prayer. Those who can motivate themselves and can deal with lifes sometimes horrific events don't need to pray to some fictional character. Look at the latest tragic accident in West Virginia. I was up when the good news came over that the miners were alive and they quoted people saying it was because we prayed for them etc etc. They broke out into prayers and songs of religion....come the morning I heard none of this, all I read was how angry people were that misinformation was giving to them. Nobody was talking about praying then or how their prayers helped them.

It is such a two way street. It is really ridiculous. Prayer gets nothing done, you have to take action yourself or get others to take action....that is what gets things done.

I've gotten into many arguments about this before, what usually happens is that religious people don't respect my viewpoint and some actually say they are sorry I don't believe or that I am soo misguided. They also offer assistance to help me find the way. And even though I am completely on the opposite side of the spectrum from these people I always show courteousy and respect that they found something in their lives that works for them. I don't tell people I'm sorry they need to pray or I'm sorry you believe in something that doesn't really exist.....if it works for you, great.

J

This is respecting THEIR viewpoint?

 

[Potapko]

I believe that board members who feel compelled to start threads regarding prayer on a scuba-diving board should stifle themselves.

I don't go to boards that discuss theology and start threads relating to the benefits of helium for planning wreck dives to depths between 250' and 300' fsw.

It astounds me that people would come to a board designed to discuss scuba issues and begin a discussion regarding the benefits of prayer.

Other than finding myself at 250' with 50 minutes of deco remaining and having a deco regulator explode on me, I fail to see the connection between scuba diving and prayer.

No offense to anyone of any faith in any country on the planet, but keep your threads on ScubaBoard at least remotely related to scuba issues. I don't give a ratsass whether you think prayer is useless, useful, moderately beneficial, harmful, offensive, inoffensive, humorous, necessary, or glorious. It doesn't belong on ScubaBoard.

[/RANT] :doctor:

Hey Doc? I might suggest NOT reading the "Non diving related" threads then

 

[bedmund]

...I think Christ would be totally ashamed to associate with most of the folks I've met in my life who call themselves "Christians". And don't even get me started on the folks who sell religion on TV ... most of 'em are in it strictly for the money.

I think you're right. He is ashamed of them. They give us a very bad name and frankly sometimes I do too. Thank God He's merciful.



-Bill

 

[Doc Intrepid]

Hey Doc? I might suggest NOT reading the "Non diving related" threads then

Check out the Terms of Service Agreement.

Topics regarding politics and religion are frowned on, as these tend to degenerate into flamewars.

As far as I'm concerned, starting a thread like this one is nothing more than a troll.

 

[Potapko]

As far as I'm concerned, starting a thread like this one is nothing more than a troll.

You may be right, sure does grab people's attention.

 

[MSilvia]

Please explain how a legitimate diety or higher power with creative abuility could not be self-aware. Please don't tell me about computers; a computer is a created object
(ironically by a higher power ... man, or woman, as the case may be)

As I already said, I don't believe in a diety. What I believe in is a universe that adheres to certain rules and can have deep meaning for those who seek it. I do not think that order and meaning imply deliberate creation, but if there was/is a being who brought creation into being, I don't think we can understand it's nature any more than we are able to understand the process it used. To say that the creator of an ordered universe must be sentient without understanding the least thing about how the act of creation is carried out is tantamount to anthropomorphic superstiton. If created, the universe could have as easily been planned in minute detail as excreted from some extradimensional oriface.

Personally, I feel that a high degree of order is inevitable in a universe with physical laws, and that moral laws are little more than guidelines for social order and personal fulfillment. Their existance says nothing to me about the presence or nature of any divinity.

What on earth makes you think I'd bring computers into it?

 

[MSilvia]

Check out the Terms of Service Agreement.
Topics regarding politics and religion are frowned on, as these tend to degenerate into flamewars.

While I took the bait, I agree with you in principle. Nevertheless, the TOS suprisingly doesn't say anything about religious topics, as far as I could tell.

'Consequently we ask that discussions involving politics and nationalities or anything of a sexual nature be reserved for other message boards that are better venues for these topics.'

 

[jepuskar]

Thedivingpreacher.....respecting and agreeing are two different thing. To me prayer gets nothing done, but to you or someone else it may and I respect that. Please dont confuse me expressing my opinions about prayer to disrespecting prayer. I will never tell anyone what they are doing is useless, that would be disrespect, but I can share how I feel about it.

Green makes a point I will touch on. He believes that there is deeper meaning to why we are here. But what if there is not? What if we are non-existent, born, alive, dead. Humans created heaven, after-life etc, and all of those concepts. God is another human concept to help those who are living cope with death. No matter what you believe in while you are alive once you die you are the same as everyone else who has ever died. Yes, you will live on in the thoughts of others, but thats all...once those people die and nobody knows about you anymore....thats it..your not thought of.

It can be a really downer to think that way, can't it? The way you are interpreting my post is based on many factors, non of which are relevant to reality. You live and you die and the world becomes what it was before you were born, but this time your not coming back. Man, I should write childrens books for churches...LOL.