Priority of skills to master for new divers

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Sounds interesting.

I think most of us feel the same things are important, the difference are from how we are interpreting the question. For example, what is meant by "skills"? Are we talking about specific exercises like fin pivots (are those still part of OW?) or general abilities like buoyancy control? And are we talking about student or certified divers.

I think some old fossils teach fin pivots. I sure hope new instructors don't, but I suspect some do. Thank you for mentioning as I'll add that to the third blog post on weighting and why fin pivots are such a bad idea (divers have to be foot heavy).

 

[TMHeimer]

Your point 2 makes me think of a couple of questions:

1. I was told never take the reg out of my mouth, as a rule to live by.. so why is it important to swap between them? I get that in the event you need your octo you need to feel comfortable getting to it and switching but beyond that I'm just curious as to why.

2. What would the rationale be for orally inflating your BC underwater? Is there any benefit for bouyancy?

1. I would think the idea is to be able to do it without swallowing water, and to be able to clear both when needed. Also would say one may question this as a skill if one has a lot of "water" experience, including snorkeling (which I almost think should be a prerequisite for OW course). Also, it may be something you may do on a surface swim at the end of a dive, or while waiting to re-board the boat. You could also just look at it as practice on airway control and equipment control.

2. Your LPI (inflator hose) detaches. Now you can orally inflate and end the dive or re-attach the hose (or as in my case once, continue the dive orally inflating). My brother didn't have an LPI diving 35-40 years ago and professes to "not like" the power button.....

 

[TMHeimer]

I think some old fossils teach fin pivots. I sure hope new instructors don't, but I suspect some do. Thank you for mentioning as I'll add that to the third blog post on weighting and why fin pivots are such a bad idea (divers have to be foot heavy).

Agree that it is a fossil, and not necessary if you can hover. Not sure about having to be foot heavy though. I've done it with 2 types of fins. Maybe because my legs are like rocks. I've never not been able to do it with feet on the bottom, though I do recall seeing a student or two having their feet raise up while inhaling (I thought "what's up with that"?).

 

[jadairiii]

Is #2 all that important if you dive a balanced rig? I'm not saying that it is not important, but I don't think it is one of the top issues to address.

I see people jump into the

Your point 2 makes me think of a couple of questions:

1. I was told never take the reg out of my mouth, as a rule to live by.. so why is it important to swap between them? I get that in the event you need your octo you need to feel comfortable getting to it and switching but beyond that I'm just curious as to why.

2. What would the rationale be for orally inflating your BC underwater? Is there any benefit for bouyancy?

If you are in an OOA emergency, you being the diver that is OOA, that is not the best time to be the first time to learn to switch regulators. You will not know how to deal with water in the reg, purge it properly or be comfortable at all. Or you may start donating your primary. You may also encounter a moment when something (dirt or whatever) is in your second stage and you need to flush it out during the dive, or some one fin kicks your second stage out of your mouth, not fun. Or you have to inflate your SMB, how you going to do that without taking your regulator out? It also leads to #2...

I have seen many times (and I will include myself in this) that you drop in without your lp inflator hose attached, or it popped off, you dump your bc/wing and you realize the mistake as you are approaching the reef or the wreck. Easy, just put a few puffs on air in the oral hose and stabilize, then fix the issue or have your buddy to help, but you avoided "crashing" on the reef. But it requires taking the reg out of your mouth to do it.

I have also seen a slow leak in an LP inflator, and it keeps putting air in your bc/wing, easy fix on a recreational dive is to disconnect the lp hose and keep diving because you are well practiced at inflating your bc orally. That does not end a dive.

This is "old school" **** that very few agencies teach anymore, you are just trained to rely on auto-inflator and hope it never fails and hope your reg never comes out of your mouth. My daughter just recently completed GUE Rec 1 and they constantly took their primary regulator out of their mouths, to donate the primary to an "OOA" diver or to inflate their SMB. Scary your instructor would teach you "to never do it".

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Agree that it is a fossil, and not necessary if you can hover. Not sure about having to be foot heavy though. I've done it with 2 types of fins. Maybe because my legs are like rocks. I've never not been able to do it with feet on the bottom, though I do recall seeing a student or two having their feet raise up while inhaling (I thought "what's up with that"?).

The issue is the difference between the center of mass and the center of buoyancy (or displacement). People's legs tend to be much denser than their chests (lungs and all) so the center of mass is below the center of buoyancy/displacement leading people to wind up in a vertical orientation eventually if no finning is performed to counter it.

Without exposure protection, there is no way I can be properly weighted and have my center of mass to be the same as the center of displacement. I need some exposure protection in my legs to compensate.

In my area, students are often not provided wetsuits for the pool, some bring their own, but those are shorties typically which only exacerbates the problem.

Fin pivots should never be done, ever. I know we generally should never say never, but in this case I do. Fix the weight distribution. That's the instructor's job.

EDIT: Thanks to the discussion, I put together this little diagram with powerpoint (as I am a horrible artist of any time, not just graphic). The idea is this. Take a uniform object (which people are not) but have the density vary. The center of buoyancy will be smack dab in the middle while the center of mass will be to the side of greater density. This results in more gravitational force to that one side. The buoyancy force is even across the device, so this results in rotation until the center of mass is inline with the center of buoyancy. Now I think how to modify it. I'm curious for anyone's feedback on if this makes the concepts of center of buoyancy and mass clear and why weight distribution is so important for achieving comfortable trim.

 

[lowwall]

1. I was told never take the reg out of my mouth, as a rule to live by.. so why is it important to swap between them? I get that in the event you need your octo you need to feel comfortable getting to it and switching but beyond that I'm just curious as to why.

Why would that be a rule? You really, really want to be able to stay calm if you find yourself without a working second stage in your mouth. The best way to assure that is to practice it. I do it on every dive.

We should probably include a list of reasons why this might happen: running OOA (should not happen), torn mouthpiece, another diver accidentally kicking out your reg, something hooking your hose and pulling the reg out, need to pose for a photo

 

[rob.mwpropane]

1. I was told never take the reg out of my mouth, as a rule to live by....

How in God's name do you expect to blow underwater bubbles?

I think you're taking this all very seriously, and in one sense that's good, obviously you want to be safe....but as a very wise diver once told me don't forget to have fun. If you're not having fun you're doing it wrong.

Don't hold your breath, don't run out of gas, everything else gets better with time.

 

[DiveToFeelAlive]

Interesting.. never thought about all these "**** can happen" scenarios where you need to react... makes sense.

I think some pool time will be well worth it to go practice all of this.

 

[MichaelMc]

EDIT: Thanks to the discussion, I put together this little diagram with powerpoint (as I am a horrible artist of any time, not just graphic). The idea is this. Take a uniform object (which people are not) but have the density vary. The center of buoyancy will be smack dab in the middle while the center of mass will be to the side of greater density. This results in more gravitational force to that one side. The buoyancy force is even across the device, so this results in rotation until the center of mass is inline with the center of buoyancy. Now I think how to modify it. I'm curious for anyone's feedback on if this makes the concepts of center of buoyancy and mass clear and why weight distribution is so important for achieving comfortable trim.

View attachment 614962

Nice diagram!! Some suggestions.

I would start with a uniform square with equal up and down arrows, demonstrating neutral buoyance.

Then your diagram, but change the big blue arrow to open black with "leads to" on the inside. Reusing the blue color was confusing. As you have vertical space, make the circle arrows extend further around to complete more of the circle, and maybe lose the twist in them.

Maybe fewer up down little arrows but add numbers to them to show they add up to the same. Or just use all the same size arrows but stack more of them at the dense end, and stack those same size arrows in two rows for the vertical bar if needed.

You could have a diagram with three rows.
The first of just weighting.
Then two of distribution as well. Each with bar level and bar later. The top with a non-uniform bar, the bottom with a uniform bar.

Neutral buoyancy:
Uniform square
(avoiding saying weighting that now, below, more fully includes amount and distribution)

Neutral buoyancy and neutral weight distribution:
uneven-bar-horizontal -> uneven-bar-vertical
even-bar-horizontal -> even-bar-horizontal


I've been using the term "neutral weight distribution" as the point is that gravity not dictate your orientation. Plus "neutral weight distribution" avoids the "horizontal uber elite" fight. And it matches "neutral weighting", but adds the second, essential, refinement to that. That you might also prefer horizontal orientation for many tasks is a choice you can then make easily after you have your neutral weight distribution. (By me, I mean non-instructor just-diver me.)

ETA: You could also use a circle. With a smiley face on it but a heavy forehead and light chin. It becomes an upside-down face that you convert to a frown as well. , or on o face with raised eyebrows so the mouth is not 'up' in both. Though this works better for front-back trim, which is not the first point you need to get to.

 

[lowwall]

EDIT: Thanks to the discussion, I put together this little diagram with powerpoint (as I am a horrible artist of any time, not just graphic).

View attachment 614962

I would simplify the diagram a bit: