Question about certification level needed

[DeputyDan]

In retrospect - the OP probably didn't actually know what all his question involved and did not realize what is required to instruct.

I apologize for assuming otherwise with my initial post.

 

[Damselfish]

not only that, but possibly the owner of the boat has no idea what they're really asking for either. Maybe the trick to this is to determine the best way to educate the owner.

 

[lmorin]

I think, if I had the $$$$ to have a yacht needing a captain and first mate, I would also prefer to have a dive instructor as an employee as well. The first mate must have qualifications suitable to that position and is a pretty big deal, if the OP has used the rank in its real seafaring meaning. Nice if the first mate also has dive instructor credentials, but I'd think the obligations pertinent to being first mate come first, with diving instruction way down the list of niceties. The owner should hire another crew member with dive instructor skills.

 

[Sinbad the Diver]

I think a lot of people have made a lot of assumptions here that may not be accurate. The OP says that the Capt is looking to hire him as mate, but the owner says he can hire anyone as long as they can teach his kids to dive and dive with them. The fact that the OP wants to learn to dive and to instruct to get this job does not mean that the owner would be willing to accept him if he did 20 dives through some 0 to hero program or that he is a bad parent who doesn't care about the safety of his children. The OP may want that, but it seems to me he came in here not understanding the industry and asked. Until people actualy get involved with SCUBA many don't have a clue how intensive it is, I know I didn't.

 

[rsldonk]

The reality is, all the certification agencies were founded to make money first and foremost. PADI for example was basically a way that John Cronin, a sporting goods salesman, came up with to allow him to sell more gear. He simply typed out the first PADI c-card on an IBM typewriter in his garage. Now yes, things have evolved largely in response to liability lawsuits and insurance coverage, but that does not change the fact that the first certifications were more or less meaningless until the industry as a whole started to enforce requiring a certification card for gear purchases, air fills and boarding a charter.

The reality is, recreational diving was really born out of the navy's frogman/SEAL program with veterans teaching friends how to dive. Certification is only as meaningful as we take it to be. What training do you really need for this sort of thing: none. Especially in the era of online gear sales, the barrier of a LDS requiring someone to show their c-card is now gone. The only real thing left is operators of dive sites, charter boats, and resorts still want to see your card (usually). Even then, someone can still go to a public body of water and just jump in, with or without certification. If you have the money to buy a decent yacht to sail around the Caribbean, chances are you have enough money to buy all the gear you need to jump off said yacht and dive.

If you have the money, it is not hard, certification or not, to buy all the gear you need, including a compressor for the boat to fill all your tanks. If someone in the diving industry is not there standing guard either with equipment sales (but buy it all online, I've never had anyone even ask for my C-card, much less turn down an online sale because they didn't see my C-card) or on a boat or resort, what's going to happen? Since there really aren't scuba police, you can buy all your gear, get your tank filled, and jump in the water with absolutely no training. Is it a good idea? I would say no, but the reality is that the above scenario is not outside the realm of possibility.

I know I'm totally ignoring any sort of liability discussion, and really that's a lot of what certification courses are intended to do, protect instructors and businesses from liability inherent in selling a product that is potentially dangerous.

So back to the OP, you would probably be ok in one of the many zero to hero programs, since it sounds like to your potential employer, the issue is a moot point. He doesn't seem to care about experience or anything like that, he just wants you to have your card. Yes, it's hard to get a job in the dive industry from one of the zero to hero programs, but this job is not really in the dive industry and really in a different universe.

 

[Thalassamania]

The reality is, all the certification agencies were founded to make money first and foremost. PADI for example was basically a way that John Cronin, a sporting goods salesman, came up with to allow him to sell more gear. He simply typed out the first PADI c-card on an IBM typewriter in his garage. Now yes, things have evolved largely in response to liability lawsuits and insurance coverage, but that does not change the fact that the first certifications were more or less meaningless until the industry as a whole started to enforce requiring a certification card for gear purchases, air fills and boarding a charter.

Patently untrue, the first agencies, LA County, YMCA and NAUI were all not for profits.

The reality is, recreational diving was really born out of the navy's frogman/SEAL program with veterans teaching friends how to dive.

Also not true, recreational training was born out of scientists who dove teaching recreational aquatics specialists how to dive.

Certification is only as meaningful as we take it to be. What training do you really need for this sort of thing: none. Especially in the era of online gear sales, the barrier of a LDS requiring someone to show their c-card is now gone. The only real thing left is operators of dive sites, charter boats, and resorts still want to see your card (usually). Even then, someone can still go to a public body of water and just jump in, with or without certification. If you have the money to buy a decent yacht to sail around the Caribbean, chances are you have enough money to buy all the gear you need to jump off said yacht and dive.

If you have the money, it is not hard, certification or not, to buy all the gear you need, including a compressor for the boat to fill all your tanks. If someone in the diving industry is not there standing guard either with equipment sales (but buy it all online, I've never had anyone even ask for my C-card, much less turn down an online sale because they didn't see my C-card) or on a boat or resort, what's going to happen? Since there really aren't scuba police, you can buy all your gear, get your tank filled, and jump in the water with absolutely no training. Is it a good idea? I would say no, but the reality is that the above scenario is not outside the realm of possibility.

I know a fair number of people who meet the description you provide and they are far, far better divers that your average recreational diver.

I know I'm totally ignoring any sort of liability discussion, and really that's a lot of what certification courses are intended to do, protect instructors and businesses from liability inherent in selling a product that is potentially dangerous.

That's accurate enough.

So back to the OP, you would probably be ok in one of the many zero to hero programs, since it sounds like to your potential employer, the issue is a moot point. He doesn't seem to care about experience or anything like that, he just wants you to have your card. Yes, it's hard to get a job in the dive industry from one of the zero to hero programs, but this job is not really in the dive industry and really in a different universe.

I've seen this sort of thing happen in the past, if I had to predict, the owner would arrive, get a quick run down, someone in the know would clue him in, he'd get pissed, yell at a few people, maybe fire someone, and start to micromanage on his own ... he'd either walk into a local shop and hire someone off the floor there for an exorbitant amount or (it the guy who clued him in was in the know) someone like me would get a call an be on a plane out to meet the boat ... I get a call like that once a year or so, so I expect that it happens quite a bit more often than that.

 

[scubafanatic]

Thats no more than SDI require for someone to take that solo diver cert

...my diving with an instructor with only 100 dives to his/her name is essentially equivalent to my diving 'solo'...they'd be pretty worthless to me! Moreover, who gives a crap about the number of dives anyway......I wanna see standards relying on things like 'dive hours'.......time logged below 100'.......types of dives (real open ocean dives...NOT pool/lake dives). Doesn't PADI define a dive as "10 min @ 20' " or something similairly trivial ? I've know DM candidates doing several such dives all at the same time, on the same single AL80 fill.....just to run-up-the-score!

 

[scubafanatic]

Methinks that nothing good can come of this...........

...I quite agree, this is the understatement of the week !

 

[Tigerman]

...my diving with an instructor with only 100 dives to his/her name is essentially equivalent to my diving 'solo'...they'd be pretty worthless to me! Moreover, who gives a crap about the number of dives anyway......I wanna see standards relying on things like 'dive hours'.......time logged below 100'.......types of dives (real open ocean dives...NOT pool/lake dives). Doesn't PADI define a dive as "10 min @ 20' " or something similairly trivial ? I've know DM candidates doing several such dives all at the same time, on the same single AL80 fill.....just to run-up-the-score!

Im actually logging short dives in short timeframes (as in dive for 10 minutes, surface for a couple of minutes and dive for 30 minutes more) as a single dive unless its a particular reason why the dives get short. If I abort a dive after 8 minutes for whatever reason I do log them as a dive just to have a record of the exact location and the reason it was aborted. Dont know how PADI define logged dives tho.

And no I dont really care if someone have 150 dives without incident in the same quarry. It doesnt really show experience as much as it show habit (and familiarity with the specific site). Should have given people time to work on bouyancy and other skills, but not even that is a given just from number of logged dives..

 

[diverdowndude]

Let me one of the first to welcome you to ScubaBoard Kevin.

Sounds like you're taking Valhalla's suggestion- Taking formal instruction with the kids is a very Smart choice in my opinion, and as suggested you should consider taking the rescue class after completing your open water instruction given your job responsibilities.

Congrats on the Job and have lots of fun with the scuba training...

Why not just have the kids along with yourself get certified with an already established instructor through AOW and nitrox and yourself the same including rescue then work toward the instructor certification if he is willing to foot the bill...