Question about the PADI Dive Table

[DepartureDiver]

Yes Brian so true. I'm amazing at what some people do and actually get away with it. I beleive that all the DCS risk minimalisation standards should be taught on all courses. Unfortunately this is far from what actually happens - but I guess those keen enough will teach themselves!Enjoy..........Iain

and I think DIR (or how ever you choose to view it) should also be incorporated, i.e. 5' to7' primary hose, a quality alternate with a necklace, etc. ... but of course we now diverge off the topic of this thread. So to get back on topic, I'm amazed that the instruction is to "dive conservative", but really no direction is given in how to do this. PADI and I got into it many years ago and I requested permission on how to give certain suggestions on how to dive conservative .. and I was actually told I could not do it. So I taught the class, issued the certs, and now that class was officially over, I handed out my own guidelines with a signature block for the students to sign acknowledging certain things. I just couldn't not show students what the idea of conservatism meant.

Brian

 

[iainwilliams]

and I think DIR (or how ever you choose to view it) should also be incorporated, i.e. 5' to7' primary hose, a quality alternate with a necklace, etc. ... but of course we now diverge off the topic of this thread. So to get back on topic, I'm amazed that the instruction is to "dive conservative", but really no direction is given in how to do this. PADI and I got into it many years ago and I requested permission on how to give certain suggestions on how to dive conservative .. and I was actually told I could not do it. So I taught the class, issued the certs, and now that class was officially over, I handed out my own guidelines with a signature block for the students to sign acknowledging certain things. I just couldn't not show students what the idea of conservatism meant.

Brian

Brian, Yes trying not to wander from the thread, I did the same thing with my students (I do not do a lot of instruction now -yipee). PADI told me to stick to the ruddy guidelines and not deviate in case of litigation! I taught the course then gave my kids a very thick folder for errr "continuing education". I think a problem also arises when instructors become managers and shop owners (although definitely not always). Cash flow and income, which correlates with numbers and minimum time outlay, sneaks in and seems to take over, with the loss of that "extra" information! I guess as I said before, if there keen they will join a forum and hopefully glean what is right and wrong from others, like yourself, that know.

Actually, a thread that one of the moderators could write, could deal exactly with this issue. Perhaps a short list of highly suggested practices that new divers could follow - such as the ones we have mentioned earlier.

I think that some of the new divers become a little worried when they read some of the threads, as in many instances it requires a very high theoretical background which is something an open water diver just out of a course probably does not have. I recon they want a list of do's and dont's that they can follow for safety until they increase their knowledge! I better get off my box - before I fall or get pushed off!!

Nice talking with you - catch you downunder..........Iain (Australia)

 

[DepartureDiver]

I think a problem also arises when instructors become managers and shop owners (although definitely not always). Cash flow and income, which correlates with numbers and minimum time outlay, sneaks in and seems to take over, with the loss of that "extra" information!

Hey ... I resemble that remark. I used to have my own store and now my teaching consists of helping with tech classes. I've never bothered to get that instructor rating ... so I let someone else run the course. But I'm mostly just diving for me. We just got a set of scoters that rock.

Actually, a thread that one of the moderators could write, could deal exactly with this issue. Perhaps a short list of highly suggested practices that new divers could follow - such as the ones we have mentioned earlier.

Why wait for a moderator? Go for it and let me know when you do it.

I think that some of the new divers become a little worried when they read some of the threads, as in many instances it requires a very high theoretical background which is something an open water diver just out of a course probably does not have. I recon they want a list of do's and dont's that they can follow for safety until they increase their knowledge!

Just keep with your goal and put it out there the purpose is to keep it simple so the thread doesn't stray from this idea.

 

[Dr Deco]

Hello Readers:

DCS Risk Minimization Standards

I too would like to see something of this taught. This concept was one reason for bringing this forum into existence. Risk minimization is usually brought about by dive tables or computers. The real culprit (or a very big culprit) in DCS is staining maneuvers.

Nowhere was activity more important in DCS risk than in my NASA studies with decompression in space and null gravity. We had to redo the entire ground-based test procedure and not allow the subjects to walk (both during the depress and for five hours before), otherwise we could not reproduce the DCS risk encountered in space.

Dr Deco :doctor:

 

[iainwilliams]

Ah you are that Brian Morris - I've heard your name around the traps (all good of course). Thanks for the link. I'll read the site when I have more time. Cheers...........Iain

 

[fins wake]

and I think DIR (or how ever you choose to view it) should also be incorporated, i.e. 5' to7' primary hose, a quality alternate with a necklace, etc. ...

I think most people, from the DIR and non-DIR camp alike, would agree that the equipment considerations you mention (which are a good idea BTW) don't really constitute DIR. But it could be considered a Hogarthian or 'cave' config ... :54:

Bit surprised about the PADI bit you refer to. There's no problem teaching long safety stops, multilevel ascents, and ascent speeds of 10 m/min nowadays. Perhaps this is now a happily outdated issue (="many years ago")?

 

[DepartureDiver]

I think most people, from the DIR and non-DIR camp alike, would agree that the equipment considerations you mention (which are a good idea BTW) don't really constitute DIR. But it could be considered a Hogarthian or 'cave' config ... :54:

agreed ... a lot know it as DIR, but I didn't want to pin a label on it.

Bit surprised about the PADI bit you refer to. There's no problem teaching long safety stops, multilevel ascents, and ascent speeds of 10 m/min nowadays. Perhaps this is now a happily outdated issue (="many years ago")?

Perhaps Iain can jump in, but I was wanting to do more than that and was told a flat "no". They didn't want any specific suggestions given and the problem I had was that the term "dive conservative" means nothing to an OW diver with no education ... so I wanted to help make it make more sense. For example, a diver may think they are being conservative if they are 5 minutes under the no-stop limit. While this may be true on a deep dive, it is not true on a shallower dive. I wanted to give the suggestion of cutting the times back by a percentage. The answer I got back (in addition to "no") was that divers may think I told them they could increase the time limits. Anyway, you get the point. So I took the path of least resistance instead of butting heads with them.

 

[iainwilliams]

Perhaps Iain can jump in!

Yes I'm here....(splash) My involvement with PADI was from 1989 to 1996 when I was working as an instructor in Australia. A PADI course director actually sat in on one of my open water courses and made the comment that the course was far too technical for an open water diver, despite the advantagous benifits of a new diver knowing a little more about DCS and how to minimise a DCS hit.

I wasn't advocating anything profound - just slow ascents, several stops at various depths, not working between dives during the surface interval, drinking lots of water pre and post dive, no coffee, no smoking (sex was OK) - and quite a bit more, but you get the drift. I used to give my students a wad of papers with graphs, tests and other data on the subject of DCS and diving conservatively. I also took them to the local chamber where the diving doctor gave them a speal of what was what!

The course director had a fit and said none of it was PADI material or sanctuioned (some was FAUI, some NAUI, some I wrote, some USN) and therefore, it could not be used or referred to in a PADI course. But, he did say that the material would be suitable for a deep diver course (PADI - put another dollar in).

Personally I think 99% of folks are capable of knowing a little more than what the PADI open water manual states. In my opinion this text is far too simplistic! But as I've stated PADI are in the business of making money first!

No doubt, and before you current PADI instructors start pointing your spearguns at me, things may well have changed since 1996..... I hope so..................Iain (did I create some lightning and perhaps a little thunder)

 

[DepartureDiver]

What's so funny is that when the RDP came out and instructor seminors were being given on it, that's when PADI tried to educate some people a little, but they got it wrong (at least at mine). They were talking about the tests the Navy did with their tables and the lack of it. I nearly went back to the hotel to give them a copy of the NEDU reports I had on the actual testing. They conveniently only cited to one ... and got it backwards. Maybe they should have taken Iain's deep diving class .... okay I'm guessing we better back off now ... but this could be moved to the "nondiving" related forum for humor .... oh I said I would back off

 

[iainwilliams]

I bit of humour is good to end a thread, and at least the question asked by the originator to the thread has been answered..........Iain