Questions about Dual bladder wings

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Tony, we can talk about on the boat some day, since we dive the same waters. I have my opinion, you have yours on what is safe.
My comments were not specifically geared to anyone person btw... and i don't think i've ever seen your gear tony, so i have no idea what you dive.
From seeing multiple folks out with Hp130's and dual bladder wings in a wetsuit - i don't think its the safest way to go.
I'll dive wet with my LP85's and a normal 60lb wing, wet - and yes my failure scenario is totally true. my dumb valve went missing at 100' on the dixie arrow b/c i did not check it for tightness prior to splashing off of JT's boat. it was a non-issue b/c i could and did swim it up and fix it then carried on. In 130's it would have been an issue.
 
Yes, Wifey had a total failure of the material in her drysuit zip at about 30m. Got very cold, as well as having to pull herself back up the shot line (with assistance) due to a fully flooded suit past what a 30lb wing could lift.

What was your wifeys kit? Singles or doubles? Steel or aluminum? How much weight? If the wing could not lift all if her kit, to include weights, lights, and all the other under water toys, her wing was too small.
 
I have had one failure like this since 72, and it was with an AtPac on the Hole in the Wall dive( at 145 deep on a spearfishing dive). It was a high current day back around 1988, and everyone was diving extra weight so we could fall onto the ledge fast enough on our descent, not to be blown off 45 degrees going offshore, with the outgoing current flow running over 3-4 mph.

I remember about 8 minutes into the dive, bumping into the bottom--too heavy, right after shooting and stringing a fish.... and then blowing air into my AtPack with the inflator...and nothing happened. I could not see the leak, or what the problem was.... I just assumed I had a catastrophic leak or failure in the wing. What had happened( I found out later) was that the hose connection where it connects to the wing, had pulled out, and all the air had left the wing--and none could get into it.

I was ridiculously heavy, in winter weight wetsuit, at 145 feet, with maybe 1500 psi left. All the other spearfisherman were chasing their prey or heading up to the surface, and no one connected with me visually to see the problem....
At least 25 pounds heavy, I began a full power swim upward, using the Ankle brace style Fara Fins ( huge thrust at full power, zero efficiency and low thrust at medium or slow kick ).

I was a top cycling racer back then, and got the heavy load up to about 20 feet from the surface, before the anaerobic level of the 100% workload began to shut down my propulsion capabilities.
I had my double barrel monster gun in one hand, and big hog snapper on a stringer still in my other hand... I was a caricature of foolishness in those days---I would not surface and let anyone know that I had been afraid of drowning and been forced to drop gun, fish or weight belt....so, I kept pushing as hard as I could to get to the surface. The next 20 feet took far longer than the first 120, but finally I was within 3 feet of the surface, just as my legs were turning to jelly from high lactic acid. Just as they were about to shut down, the Platform which hung down 2 feet into the water from Frank's dive boat was visible directly over my head--and had stopped right there--obviously Frank had seen my bubbles, and had moved in to pick me up( he would find divers by bubbles all the time)...I made my final sprint, and my hand caught the bottom of the ladder.....I grabbed on firmly, my legs now exhausted, went limp, and I hung on the ladder about 20 more seconds to get my breath.....then slowly pulled myself up onto the platform--threw the gun up and handed the fish up....
I was silent regarding the issue I had had until I recovered about 5 minutes later. I was just sitting on the bench, still attached to the tank. So finally I get out of the AtPac, and see the hose separation. I shared the failure of the Atpac with my friends, but did not really relay the severity of the issue.

Had the boat not been right over my head, I would hope that my choice would then to have been the dropping of the 7 pound gun, and the fish, and the release of the weight belt...and that would have been sufficient.....Stil, the atpac had it's own weighting that did not drop out of it, and I am not certain that I would have been positive at that point without dumping the tank and then free ascending---with the maximal breathing rate of the emergency effort, this would have been a bad proposition.

Of course, the moral(s) of the story would be : dive with a buddy, even when spearfishing; don't be ridiculously overweighted; Don't use a tank that you can't easily swim up if you have a wing failure; Don't be a macho jerk;
Don't be hesitant to dump gear you like, if you think your life may be at stake----don't lie to yourself about whether your life is at stake ....

Anyway, this was a lesson I leaned well, and many years later after George and Bill got me to be DIR, I became particularly vocal about how much negative weight is acceptable for a diver to use--the concept we discuss today as diving a "balanced rig".
 
Danvolker...one hell of an event. Reading it kept me on e the edge of my seat. No joking. You must have been somewhat scared ****less. Thanks
 
Danvolker...one hell of an event. Reading it kept me on e the edge of my seat. No joking. You must have been somewhat scared ****less. Thanks

Why is it scary? It is a story of utter stupidity.. Refused to drop lead when he needed to. Who would consider droping their gun in a situation like that?
 
Anyway, this was a lesson I leaned well, and many years later after George and Bill got me to be DIR, I became particularly vocal about how much negative weight is acceptable for a diver to use--the concept we discuss today as diving a "balanced rig".

15 pounds is generally the maximum recommended weight a diver should attempt to lift without some sort of buoyant assist. Two LP85's or AL80's would fall into this category without any form of wing or suit inflation.

From Equipment Configuration | Global Underwater Explorers

Many divers mistakenly believe that they must have large buoyancy compensators to support their diving needs. Actually, divers do not need excessive amounts of lift; large wings, because of the additional material they require, only serve to increase drag.

Don't use large wings. Many divers will wear wings that are larger than the tanks they are using. This shouldn't be routine practice. Wings should be properly sized for the tanks you are diving. But, on occasion it may happen. Do you go out and buy a 40lb. lift wing for AL80's if you are borrowing them for a day and normally use a 60 lb. lift? Most of the time divers make relatively benign dives when they use low capacity tanks with large wings such as on vacation. As far as drag goes, who has more drag? A drysuit diver with a 60 lb. lift wing wearing LP85's or a wetsuit diver wearing a 40lb. dual lift wing with a set of LP85's?

However, if a diver does need more than 65 pounds of lift for diving doubles, or more than 30 pounds for diving singles, then they do not have a balanced rig. The diver should be able to drop unnecessary weight and swim up without a functioning BC. As with all diving, the key component to proper buoyancy is diving with a properly balanced rig.

As with all diving "balanced" means being able to swim up the tanks without a form of buoyant lift other than the diver's lungs and power.


Divers using dual BCs have experienced an array of problems including increased drag, additional task loading and uncontrolled inflation.

No more so than a diver in a drysuit and actually less if the dual wing is used on balanced cylinders. The added task loading is true, but minor. It may take longer to diagnose a wing failure with a dual lift wing.
I ended up on the bottom before I figured out what had happened to my single lift wing at Ginnie while wearing a drysuit. Fortunately, I was over rocks unlike the diver who silted the cave using a dual lift wing in the link James posted to TDS. Two different configurations. Same results. It can happen quick. You can be on the bottom in a cave before you even realized you had a problem. In open water you have more time to realoize that you've lost buoyancy. And, like James pointed out you can't just add gas instantly to another source such as a drysuit while using a dual lift. You'll have to reach and deploy an oral inflator hose. However, unless gas was added to a second wing at depth. There is less task-loading to manage during the ascent rather than dumping from a wing and a drysuit. This is also minor task-loading. Uncontrolled inflation is easy ... DO NOT CONNECT A DUAL WING's BACK-UP WING TO A POWER INFLATOR!

There is never a need for “redundant buoyancy” in a properly balanced rig. The DIR approach avoids the use of dual BCs, and instead stresses proper balance between BC, cylinders, weighting and exposure suit.

This concept should be no different for a dual wing diver. In this case the exposure suit would be a wetsuit. You still need to balance the BC, cylinders, weighting and exposure suit. The exposure suit won't help with buoyancy in deep water. You can also add "gas" to the equation as helium is much lighter than air or nitrox. There are many poorly trained divers using dual wings and their are many poorly trained divers using single wings and drysuits. A rig isn't unbalanced just because you have a dual wing nor is it balanced just because you wear a drysuit. A good diver will balance his or her rig regardless of exposure suit/BC configuration.
 
Refused to drop lead when he needed to. Who would consider droping their gun in a situation like that?

That's a key issue, when considering a balanced rig approach. The diver needs to have a clear idea about what weight/ballast they can drop...and when. An intelligent approach towards creating the right amount of dumpable weight, plus understanding what other negatively buoyant items can be jettisoned at varied stages during the dive, provides the diver with an ability to shape their 'base-line buoyancy'.
 
Why is it scary? It is a story of utter stupidity.. Refused to drop lead when he needed to. Who would consider droping their gun in a situation like that?
I did say it was an example of extreme stupidity in my past, way before DIR. I suppose I should expect you to "run" with this....:shakehead:

In my early days of diving, I learned many things the "hard way". I survived, slowly got smarter about the way I approached things, then met George and Bill, and my methods of planning and reasoning became much more intelligent.
Thanks DD....
 
Why is it scary? It is a story of utter stupidity.. Refused to drop lead when he needed to. Who would consider droping their gun in a situation like that?

Stupid yes and if it were you am sure that it would be very scary. There have several of divers that have talked about there close call but still had on all their weight, find or catch. But heck, why not just beat up a diver for trying to help out others based on a dive he had back in 1979.
 
I did say it was an example of extreme stupidity in my past, way before DIR. I suppose I should expect you to "run" with this....:shakehead:

In my early days of diving, I learned many things the "hard way". I survived, slowly got smarter about the way I approached things, then met George and Bill, and my methods of planning and reasoning became much more intelligent.
Thanks DD....

I agree, you said it was stupid, the description clearly explains how testosterone and pride (rather than buoyancy problems) nearly did you in..I was just amazed that somebody thought it was scary..

Some day, I will tell about a solo wreck penetration dive that required the removal of my tank, inversion and then sliding deep into a crack in a wreck, all to get a $22 shaft back...I got stuck for a little while on that dive while holding my breath. I learn the hard way too... My weight belt is much cleaner now...
 
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