Rant about scuba instruction

[Walter]

padiscubapro,

"remeber a PADI program (at least 80% of all certified divers) is only 5 modules.. I do it in 5 pool sessions, but many instructors do multiple modules in a day, so they may only get 2 or 3 days in a pool before OW and a private student maybe all in 1 day..."

Yes, I've known for years that most classes were inadequate.

 

[jonnythan]

Originally posted by Walter
padiscubapro,

"remeber a PADI program (at least 80% of all certified divers) is only 5 modules.. I do it in 5 pool sessions, but many instructors do multiple modules in a day, so they may only get 2 or 3 days in a pool before OW and a private student maybe all in 1 day..."

Yes, I've known for years that most classes were inadequate.

Oh come on. Get over yourself. If you have to make yourself feel so superior by belittling other people and acting smug, go right ahead. You're not fooling any of us.

Before anyone mentions respect again, people have to earn my respect. You, Walter, dropped the ball just now. I'm done justifying myself to you.. it's not worth it. You're so set in your opinions you won't listen to anyone. If you could have produced a situation where I may need to swim, I would have reconsidered.

You never will.

 

[padiscubapro]

Originally posted by Walter
padiscubapro,

"remeber a PADI program (at least 80% of all certified divers) is only 5 modules.. I do it in 5 pool sessions, but many instructors do multiple modules in a day, so they may only get 2 or 3 days in a pool before OW and a private student maybe all in 1 day..."

Yes, I've known for years that most classes were inadequate.

Being an OW diver is not about being an expert, its about a new diver learning to function in a new enviroment..
Most divers from My neck of the woods come out of OW caple of diving with a buddy since they get used to harsh conditions.. In generally once they get to wonderful clear water the are relaxed and have some fun.. The opposite is definately not true I've seen many a warm water experienced diver have severe problems once the viz gets bad in their opinion.. ( I was happy when I had 10 ft last week) I know I've had to fight with operators on some occasions to do a dive when they wanted to cancel it for "poor " viz, In one instance My group was very happy to dive in 30ft viz, but a bunch of other divers on this trip wasn't happy when we got our wish and they had the choice do the dive or lose their money..
If we are going to keep people in this industry the sport has to be enjoyable, pushing too many skills at once is a losing proposition, The idea is to get a diver out there who can take care of himslef and lend some assistance. It would be great if he/she was rescue ready but thats unrealistic. A diver who has sufficient skills to do the dive and enjoy him/herself will stay with the sport and hopefully take more training.. I have no problem getting someone out in OW to get experience, but just because you complted 4 dives doesn't mean I'll sign you off.. The person must show some confort and good judgement... I don't expect perfection, just someone with the right attitude and basic skills.. My feeling on advanced technical training is exactly the opposite, by now you are not a beginner and everything must be done perfectly... On my tech classes I enforce a zero tolerance depth limit, you exceed the planned depth, you broke the dive plan and the dive doesn't count!

The only real problem I see sometimes is that not all instructors spend enough time on explaning and showing new divers how to adjust their buoyancy for different thermal protection and sometimes are severely overweated when in warm water...

 

[Hal Iotis]

Sorry, the 10 yr anniversary of the L.A. riots just passed and I was feeling nostalgic...

This thread seems to be getting a little personal, but I would like to add my $0.02 anyway. First, I see limited situations where nonswimmers/weak swimmers may be OK to scuba dive. The Handicapped Scuba Association offers a structured program to introduce handicapped divers to the joys of scuba. The dives are offered under controlled conditions in warm/clear water areas. Divers of various disabilities are paired with HSA-trained buddies and DMs, after having been trained by HSA instructors. In this case, strong swimmers make up for the impaired abilities of the HSA divers. I can't wait to take my paraplegic friend diving!

However, outside of the very limited exception above, I firmly believe that weak swimmers and nonswimmers have no place in Scuba diving. If you are so passionate about the sport, you ought to take the time to learn how to swim and be comfortable in the ocean. In fact, prospective BOW students should try bodysurfing and freediving first in order to become accustomed to the ocean and improve water skills and confidence. There's nothing like diving under a big set of waves or bobbing around in the surf sans mask, fins and snorkel to introduce someone to the power of the ocean. Why the rush to blow bubbles with Scuba? If you're reasonably fit, a few swimming lessons and a coupla days at the beach can improve your skills and confidence dramatically.

I have assisted a fair number of classes in the Monterey area, and have noted a strong correlation between weak swimmers and panic situations. This is especially in AOW classes, where recently certified divers first encounter mildly challenging conditions such as night dives from the beach. I haven't seen a class yet where someone hasn't been towed back to the shore/boat by a stronger swimmer.

IMHO, all classes should require at least two free dives to a sandy bottom (say, 15-20'), coupled with surf entries and lost equipment recoveries. Scuba isn't a macho sport, and most people can learn the requisite skills, but it is more than cruising tropical reefs in fancy gear. You should be able to self rescue (i.e. swim for your life) in all but the most dire situations.

 

[padiscubapro]

Hal,
Not to pick on you but those 2 skills are not available in many areas, some places only have mud/silt bottoms, other places have no surf.. Tell someone in the Caymans they cant certify a diver because they cant do a surf entry (at least most of the year).

Certification has to include skills that can be taught and checked anywhere, additional necessary skills for LOCAL conditions should be taught locally to divers if they are going to dive locally..

Up here in the northeast most dives are done off a boat any shore based dives have easy access no waves.....

If you go to a quarry its even easier, now you deal with very heavy thermal protection...

 

[Hal Iotis]

PadiSP - Yer right that local conditions need to be emphasized, but somewhere along the line divers need to pick up water skills that will serve them wherever they happen to dive. I've been on boats with AOW certified divers whose swimming skills had never been put to the test. Not a good time to wish you had spent more time in the ocean as opposed to the pool. Freediving to a mud bottom would work too, I suppose.

 

[padiscubapro]

Originally posted by Hal Iotis
PadiSP - Yer right that local conditions need to be emphasized, but somewhere along the line divers need to pick up water skills that will serve them wherever they happen to dive. I've been on boats with AOW certified divers whose swimming skills had never been put to the test. Not a good time to wish you had spent more time in the ocean as opposed to the pool. Freediving to a mud bottom would work too, I suppose.

Yep, youd know once you sunk into it..... The bottom in some areas here really is terrible you can sink several FEET into it, when on scuba you start decending VERY slowly once you know you are close.. otherwise you'll never forget the smell of hydrogen sulfide after you get out and will never make that mistake again

 

[Walter]

jonnythan,

"I did give reasons, you failed to paste them."

Sorry if I missed your reasons. What are they?

"I never said I'll never need a rescue. I'm thankful people like you are out there in case I do get in a bad situation."

You can't count on someone being there at the right place and time. I'll do what I can for anyone who needs help, but it's best if you have the ability to save yourself.

"people have to earn my respect. You, Walter, dropped the ball just now"

If I've lost your respect because I strongly believe 5 pool sessions is inadequate in which to teach a dive class so be it.

"I'm done justifying myself to you"

You never have a need to justify yourself to me. You must justify yourself to you. If you're satisified what more do you want?

padiscubapro,

"Being an OW diver is not about being an expert, its about a new diver learning to function in a new enviroment"

No arguments there. Where people disagree is what level of competence is necessary for an open water diver. The level some people find acceptable is a level I believe puts the diver in grave danger. I don't want divers to die when additional training would have saved them.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Walter,
I teach alot. I dive alot and see many divers. I share your opinion that most are not very good. I have a fair number of rescues to my credit also. I believe without supervision most should not be in the water. If it were up to me all divers would progress at least to the rescue level. I have added pool time to my class and with it cost and scheduling problems. Our class has twice the pool time of other local courses but not twice the price. It remains to be seen wether or not I have priced myself out of a job. There is compromise in all things. If I am out of business and not teaching I will no longer influence anyone. The industry, as you know, has evolved to the point were the goal is to prepare people to dive under supervision on canned dives. Lets face it that is the diving that most people do. I stress to my students that an entry level class is just that. How many hours do you spend in the pool? How large are your classes? How much does pool time cost you? How much do you charge?

Mike

 

[Ron Brandt]

Stacy . I first have to ask. Are you one of these 6 month fast track instructors with no "practical" experience with students while being a DM or and AI ?

Welcome to the real world of diving instruction. Were you not in any class that had problem students while you were learning ? What did that instructor do ?

Did you not ever have problems or fears ? If you have never been scared diving , you have never really dove.

Befor I became an instructor I had 18 years of diving experience and 5 years as a DM/AI assisting at least one class a week.

Monitor the guy who drinks. The others need work but you are a dedicated instructor , right.


Congrats on becomming an instructor !!


Ethics are important and so is not getting QA'd


Ron