RBC's & PPN2

[Lost Yooper]

You guys would just have to have a deep air course (maybe 2-3 deep air courses), because without that narced up training, you can't be effectively trained in trimix -- duh.

Mike

PS. Ya gotta make sure one of your classes takes students to at least 250' on air, so they can experience the twinging of ox tox as well as the narcosis. You have to be able to recognize that stuff, eh?

 

[padiscubapro]

for somethings there is no substitute for experiencing it.. As an instructor I can talk til I'm blue in the face and some students just don't believe you..

Otox symptoms - only a fool would purposely expose themselves or students to that. too dangerous to do on purpose

nitrogen narcosis, some exposure would be a good thing, a person should see how they are impaired, I'm not talking about whacked beyond functionality but to a point where some measurable impairement can be demonstrated, for some people 100ft is all thats necessary others its at least 130ft, but until they "see" it for themsleves many don't take it seriously. DIR training says narcosis can't be managed, I think this is a crock of s***. There is alot to say about focusing on the task at hand. More people are dying on the Doria and other deep wrecks than ever before. There were much less incidents when people were diving air. The people that did these dive on air were very seasoned divers now that He training is readily available to many people think its no longer a big deal. It's not a big deal until the S*** hits the fan. Has He made those original deep divers safer.. you bet, but they already learned to deal with diving under more difficult conditions and took things seriously. Do I dive He... Yes I do but I also used to dive at these same depths with air and am very confortable knowing nomatter what happens my experience should pull me through.

C02 hit - under a controlled situation this is something that for certain types of divers its a must, for most divers there really is no way to purposely and quickly show it. In a RB (CCR especially) class this is a training experience that should be approached with utmost importance (and is very easy to do). CO2 symptoms have to be recognized as early as possible since they can impair judgment and reasoning ability to an extent much worse than ANY inert gas narcosis can do. Until I experienced it I never realized how fast symptoms can progress and as they get worse how difficult it is to recover quickly from it..

http://www.geocities.com/padiscubapro/index.htm

 

[Lost Yooper]

:nono:

The reason students don't take deep air seriously is because most training agencies are greedy and don't take it seriously.

"More people are dying on the Doria and other deep wrecks than ever before. There were much less incidents when people were diving air."

Give me a break! There are more people dying because there are more people going to those depths on AIR. They are most certainly not dying from getting narced up on trimix and being unable to respond to emergencies efficiently.
The agencies that support, encourage, and teach deep air are brainwashing their students into thinking narcosis can't be "dealt with". Of course, they conveniently leave out CO2 narcosis which is enormously more narcotic than N2 -- but that's not important, right? Or do you think that can be "dealt with" too? Probably.

"Yes I do but I also used to dive at these same depths with air and am very confortable knowing nomatter what happens my experience should pull me through."

"Should pull me through" -- enough said. Wait until ole Murphy shows up PO'ed. There's a lot of dead people who thought their experience would overcome physiolgy and unexpected scenarios. Do as you do, but I don't respect any agency that endorses deep air because there is NO GOOD reason to do so.

I have yet to experience N2 narcosis to the point I have felt it influence my diving skill. Do I care to? Nope.
I have yet to experience O2 Tox. Do I care to? Nope.
I have yet to experience a CO2 problem. Do I care to? Nope.
I have yet to experience CO2 narcosis. Do I care to? Nope.
I have yet to experience a near death situation as the result of my breathing gas. Do I care to? Nope.

Why would someone think that you have to experience something to know that it's dangerous? We know these things are dangerous, so why go near them? I have never understood why something so blatently obvious to me (and many others) is completely foreign to so many others. My only answer is greed, because I don't see the "logic".

Why any agency would place (much less teach) their students under circumstances that could physiologically impair their mental abilties is beyond me. There is no reason for it other than for the agencies to make a ton of money offering more classes.

Offer trimix and kill deep air forever.

Mike

 

[padiscubapro]

Originally posted by Lost Yooper
:nono:

The reason students don't take deep air seriously is because most training agencies are greedy and don't take it seriously.


Give me a break! There are more people dying because there are more people going to those depths on AIR. They are most certainly not dying from getting narced up on trimix and being unable to respond to emergencies efficiently.

some of the deaths were air, but many more were other breathing He who shouldn't have been there..


"Should pull me through" -- enough said. Wait until ole Murphy shows up PO'ed. There's a lot of dead people who thought their experience would overcome physiolgy and unexpected scenarios.

I dive He but if I HAD to switch to some mix that wasn't optimal, at least I know what to expect. Its better to breath a poor mix than none at all.


Why would someone think that you have to experience something to know that it's dangerous?

some people have to be shown, most divers you speak to will say they have never been narced, thats probabably a crock. I never said you have to dive to unrealistic depths now that He is fairly available in many areas, 130 on air is not unrealistic for many people, an extended range class teaches eqpt and gas management and that all dives must be at least 130, no where does it say you have to goto 160 or 180. I never said I endorsed getting whacked out of you mind either, I just said "measureable" impairment.. Doing simple math, word jumbles, tying knots...

Why any agency would place (much less teach) their students under circumstances that could physiologically impair their mental abilties is beyond me.

The CO2 problem I described is the perfect example, its easy to do and it doesn't endanger a student.

"There is no reason for it other than for the agencies to make a ton of money offering more classes."

Thats also a crock obviously your a DIR kinda guy, they break their stuff into many clasess to get your bucks just bring in He at a different depth. Personally He at 130 is more of a risk than AIr at 130, A dive that would be a no deco dive at 130 using nitrox is into a decompression obligation using He. by 150 the NDL is so short there really isn't a reason not to switch to He.

I have no real problem in DIR methods, I do have a problem in that many DIR divers aren't self sufficient, they get the team philosophy so ingrained in their minds many are incabable of self rescue (team planning for technical dives is a must but a person should also be capable of taking care of ones own hide) or diving with non DIR divers who may have different gear configs.

 

[Lost Yooper]

First let me say that I am writing this in a good tone. I'm not interested in full blown episode. We simply disagree on a few points.

"some of the deaths were air, but many more were other breathing He who shouldn't have been there."

I can't really disagree with that. The Doria desearves respect, but it's not an air dive either. There is no cure for stupidity sometimes.

"Its better to breath a poor mix than none at all."

This mentality drives me nutts :bonk:. Why wouldn't the mix be optimal, and why would there be a poor mix to breath at all? This shouldn't be an issue.

"some people have to be shown, most divers you speak to will say they have never been narced, thats probabably a crock. I never said you have to dive to unrealistic depths now that He is fairly available in many areas, 130 on air is not unrealistic for many people, an extended range class teaches eqpt and gas management and that all dives must be at least 130, no where does it say you have to goto 160 or 180. I never said I endorsed getting whacked out of you mind either, I just said "measureable" impairment.. Doing simple math, word jumbles, tying knots... "

I basically agree with you on the 130' thing. The problem is that they would allow 160' or 180', and there's absolutely no reason to do it. By endorsing those depths on air, they are directly/indirectly telling their "followers" that it's OK. It's not OK when things go wrong. There is no GOOD reason to endorse those depths, period.

"Thats also a crock obviously your a DIR kinda guy, they break their stuff into many clasess to get your bucks just bring in He at a different depth. Personally He at 130 is more of a risk than AIr at 130, A dive that would be a no deco dive at 130 using nitrox is into a decompression obligation using He. by 150 the NDL is so short there really isn't a reason not to switch to He. "

It's no secret that I am of the DIR mindset -- thankfully . Of course they (GUE) bring their stuff in. Keep in mind that the leaders of DIR took it upon themselves to make decent gear that nobody else would make. Of course they are going to try and sell it. The difference is they don't have a bunch of irrelevant or bogus prerequisite classes to get to trimix.

"I have no real problem in DIR methods, I do have a problem in that many DIR divers aren't self sufficient, they get the team philosophy so ingrained in their minds many are incabable of self rescue (team planning for technical dives is a must but a person should also be capable of taking care of ones own hide) or diving with non DIR divers who may have different gear configs."

Now this one is so far out of whack that I'm virtually speachless . No, I am speachless.

Gotta go.

Mike

PS. They argue a 130' END, not necessarily a switch to helium at 130' for precisely the reason you stated.

 

[padiscubapro]

I wasn't trying to get into an arguing match, I just don't believe there is only one correct way to do things. I believe confort and familiarity with ones gear is a must.
I also believe divers shouldn't just exclude someone else 'cause his/her gear is different. I believe attitude is the most important aspect. A diver should take all dives seriously, make an effort to understand the task at hand and be able to render assistance to anyone in need.. I dive both OC and CC, and some of the looks and attitude I get from DIR people when diving CC is apauling, many have the attitude that that machine will kill you.. Granted a poorly trained CCR diver or one that is exceding his/her experience level on the equipment is an accident waiting to happen.. Just cause you can safely dive to 200 on oc doesn't give you the experience to do the same on a CCR. On a deep dive using CC I probably have the least worries of anyone, I have so many options available to me in the event of eqpt failure... Many CCR divers give up their breathing loop to easily, with proper experience you CAN fly the unit blind and can still use it with total scrubber failure.. They require special procedures and practice.. I also carry sufficient bailout to get me home, but in reality its more likely to be needed by an OC diver.

My comment about self sufficiency has to be taken in the conditions I'm used to diving in.. I'm used to low viz 5-10ft on average (but a helluva lot worse at times), where buddy teams don't always work well and I have seen the looks on divers who have the look on their faces that the boogie man is going to get them primarily when they get seperated from their buddies.. I have seen many top DIR divers who I'd dive with anyday and other who preach the DIR mantra and are useless on their own. Just because a diver has taken a specific class doesn't guarantee them becoming a better diver.
I also have done "parts" of diver where it was safer to have the buddy stay behind and not venture with me into some unknown hole where now both of us may have to crawl out backwards... In a cave it might not be the worse thing but on some of the wrecks I have penetrated the chance of something getting severed is a real possibility, two people just increase the odds of that happening. I prefer diving with a buddy, it gives you backup when necessary and someone to share with but I'd rather dive solo than with an incopetant diver.

also another note about diving deep on air, many places where you can dive outside of the US its impossible to get any He, I prefer not diving deep without the use of He but in warm clear water on a mustn't miss dive, I wouldn't not do a Dive to 160 or 170 'cause I couldn't get any He providing evrything else necessary is availble.

Dive Safe

 

[Lost Yooper]

I can't effectively argue against CCR because I don't know enough about them. I've basically heard nothing but bad things about them and the results of using them seem to be grim for many. The only CCR that I've been around failed on the guy (a very high ranking IANTD extreme cave instructor using an Inspiration). He lived. The reliable technology doesn't seem to there yet, but that's my bystander point of view. I do know that the Halcyon SCR has an extrodinary track record within the WKPP for what that is worth -- probably nothing, right?

The DIR philosophy has more than enough merit to speak for itself. As you know, it is utilized by the most extreme group of cavers in the world under very trying circumstances. They seem to be able to make the buddy system work three miles inside a cave where conditions vary from one side of spectrum to the other. If the circumstances are such that a buddy team won't work, then don't go there. You can do as want because everything boils down to personnal risk assesment in the end.
I don't think someone can legitimately call the guys in the WKPP wussies for not diving solo. Considering they have a 0 death track record in 7 years utilizing DIR, SCR's, and the buddy system and doing the most extreme cave dives ever done, is there any chance that what they argue might have some legitimacy? If DIR is working under these conditions, then it seems to me that it will work for virtually any diving environment. The DIR philosophy hasn't failed us in our cold deep water wreck diving where conditions run the gamut from mediocre to ugly.

Not being able to get helium isn't an excuse for agencies to teach deep air. This argument lends itself to the greed I've been talking about. Rather than change the psyche of the diving community and say deep air is bad and should be avoided at all costs, they step up and collect their money by offering deep air courses (supply-demand). The end result is a community that is brainwashed into believing they have been trained to "deal with" the narcosis.

Later.

Mike

PS. DIR nor GUE will necessarily transform a moron into a Jarrod Jablonski. Some people are naturally stupid for which there is little hope . I agree with you that formal training doesn't necessarily mean squat as far as the end product is concerned.

 

[padiscubapro]

"The reliable technology doesn't seem to there yet, but that's my bystander point of view. I do know that the Halcyon SCR has an extrodinary track record within the WKPP for what that is worth -- probably nothing, right? "

SCRs don't have the same types of failures as CCR's do and the halycon is a passive addition SCR.

They (scrs) help reduce the gas needed for a dive but you don't gain the benefit of running a high po2 throught the dive. also deep dives require multiple gases where as on a CCR you really can get away with 1 diluent gas + 02 and addidng gasses is usually only done to alter deco obligations. whereas an SCR its a necessity.

I think the inspiration has gotten a bad rap, there have been deaths but they all appear to be diver error, and the are several thousand inspirations out there so, its going to see more accidents than anyone else, I don't think any other manufacturer has even shipped in the hundreds.
Both technologies have their risks (HYPOXIA is the biggest risk for any SCR diver), the INSPIRATION is a rather simple CCR (which I am certified to teach) and other than total loop failure a skilled CCR diver should be able to get through any trouble that may arise even total electronics failure.
In my eyes the only time to give up the loop is catastrophic loop failure (canister cracked, hose cut ect) everything else can be worked around.. Even if I decided to manually run a CCR as an SCR my little 20cuft of diluent is the same or greater than an OC bailing out on a 100cft cylinder. , and if I hook my bail out gas to the manual addition connection while underwater (via a lp inflator) a 40cft bottle is like another 200 cuft
If one has practiced flying the unit manualy and understands their o2 metabolic rate you can easily get away without any electronics. You know you depth, flush the breathing loop know you have a known starting point for Po2 (for ex. 100 ft = 4ata, , diluent=air =.21% @100 ft Po2=.84 and so on) and take it from there, at worst case flush the loop at every depth change, mainting a stable Po2 just involves breath counting. once I get to 20ft, flush the bag and turn it into an oxygen rebreather, now you just add o2 when loop volume decreases. Being able to figure out your Po2s and oxygen loop percentages on the fly is a must in the event of a failure, its not difficult especially if you work in metric units.. 30 meters= move the decimal 1 place to the left the add 1= 4 ata, easier than dividing by 33!, air consumption and time remaining is a brezze in metric, 3 liter bottle @ 200 bar == 600 liters of gas, most ccr divers use about 1 liter per minute normal swimming.. I have 600 minutes of oxygen...
doesn't take a rocket scientist..

The biggest problems are complacency, cutting corners and not realizing once you switch to CCR your are starting all over again and If you jump right into difficult dives and get yourself in trouble you deserve it.. .