Recent Fatalities - Accident Analysis

[WreckWriter]

tchil01 once bubbled...
However, given internet discussion groups in general, and my observations of individuals in this group, I personally do not feel this is the best forum to debate these issues.

Well Ty,

I partially agree with you on this. You're right, there will be folks who take the stand that "solo is never acceptable", there will be those who feel that their method is the only one that will allow even a moderate dive to be survivable. OK, that's fine.

There will also be folks who are willing to look at all aspects of a situation and who believe there may be multiple ways to skin the proverbial cat.

Where else will these things be discussed if not in an Internet forum? Sure, local clubs, groups, etc will no doubt discuss them but here, on the Net in general, not just on scubaboard, we have the benefit of folks from all over the world, with all levels of experience, with all philosophies, able to come together and share our feelings and experiences.

Personally I try to filter through the chaff. When some guy with very few dives starts talking trash, it goes in one ear and out the other. On the other hand, when guys with thousands of dives talk, I listen. I may not always agree but I do try to consider their points.

Sometimes I get in arguments, I try not too but sometimes it just happens (like the tank boot thread). <shrug>

Just my opinion of course.

Tom

 

[O-ring]

I once posted a question about a death while diving on the Algol. I had a dive on the Seeker planned and I was looking for information on a rumor I had heard. While one or two post dealt with the facts, numerous posts focused on slamming the Seeker by people who had never been on it because Captain Dan did not accept GUE certification. Other post went off in a tangent about whether “fat” people should be allowed to dive.

Sorry you still have a chip on your shoulder about that seeker thing. You'll get over it.

This thread, while expressing the purpose of examining the recent deaths in our sport, actually has been full of inaccurate statements and innuendo and then baited the “****load” of solo divers to come into this arena and debate their choice to dive as they do.

At least it got the discussion started and got people like you to come in here and speak up. If anybody learns anything useful that helps save a life it was worth it. I don't care if I come off looking like an @*#&! in the process, it doesn't bother me. So straighten me and the others out, Ty. What are the facts?

Personally I try to filter through the chaff. When some guy with very few dives starts talking trash, it goes in one ear and out the other.

I may not have as many dives as you, but does that make me less of a diver? It doesn't take a 30 year veteran to see the mistakes here and learn from them. Take shots all you want, at least the thread is out there and someone may see it and decide not to do something stupid and end up the topic of a thread on scubaboard.

 

[WreckWriter]

O-ring once bubbled...
I may not have as many dives as you, but does that make me less of a diver? It doesn't take a 30 year veteran to see the mistakes here and learn from them. Take shots all you want, at least the thread is out there and someone may see it and decide not to do something stupid and end up the topic of a thread on scubaboard.

You consider that a shot? It wasn't meant that way but you can take it however you please.

Had you read my message instead of just picking out the little part that you wrongly felt was directed at you, you might have seen that I was agreeing with you that it should be discussed.

Tom

 

[tchil01]

WreckWriter once bubbled...


Where else will these things be discussed if not in an Internet forum? Sure, local clubs, groups, etc will no doubt discuss them but here, on the Net in general, not just on scubaboard, we have the benefit of folks from all over the world, with all levels of experience, with all philosophies, able to come together and share our feelings and experiences.

Personally I try to filter through the chaff. When some guy with very few dives starts talking trash, it goes in one ear and out the other. On the other hand, when guys with thousands of dives talk, I listen. I may not always agree but I do try to consider their points.

True Tom

The internet has opened tremendous opportunities for sharing information and ideas and allowing debate with multiple viewpoints previously unavailable. However, with all good things, it also has its drawbacks. As easy as it is to post helpful, insightful and valuable information, it is just as easy to post degrading, argumentative, and slanderous comments. I guess one of the prices for participating in a great forum such as Scubaboard is, as you say, filtering out the chaff.

Understanding what caused a dive accident is valuable, to fairly new divers such as myself, to veteran divers such as you. Learning is always part of any sport, especially ours, and I look forward to furthering my education from divers who have come before me, who understand the hazards of the sport, and who share this information without preconception or prejudice.

Ty

 

[O-ring]

You are right about my post inviting the solo divers in for discussion. That was a bit on the argumentative side. For that I apologize. The thread was started with a simple list of accidents and what I felt were the conclusions that I could draw from them.

Other than that, where are all the inaccurate statements and innuendo? Where are the preconceptions and prejudice?

 

[jbd]

The problem with listing heart attacks as diving accidents, IMHO, is that the heart attack may well NOT have been a result of scuba diving. I think it would be a good idea for lay people to do some research and learn what all the causes or mechanisms are for what is generically termed heart attack.

The diver that Neve knew who died of a massive heart attack may well have died of the same thing while sitting in his favorite chair at home just as my neighbor did a few years ago. What is not reported is the mechanism of that massive heart attack.

Discussing dive accidents and deaths is a part of responsible diving IMHO. In the case cited by neve the pertinent facts were made known. The medical conclusion was massive heart attack and apparently had nothing to do with the fact the man was scuba diving or diving solo. I doubt seriously that 10 buddies being present could have saved this man. Sometimes when your time is up its up no matter where you are or what you're doing.

 

[O-ring]

Ok, I will concede that I am no coronary expert and that heart attacks can happen anywhere and often can be brought on while diving due to carrying a lot of equipment, etc. So, throwing that one out, I still think these conclusions fit the situations aforementioned.

Conclusions: run a continuous guideline when diving in an overhead environment and dive in buddy teams that remain aware of each other and are not merely using the "same ocean" buddy system.

 

[WreckWriter]

I think the real issue here is perhaps the accuracy of the stated cause of death. Not only in this case but in so many others that we have seen classified as "heart attack".

Many years ago the Monroe County (Florida keys) coroner was a bit of a standing joke in the dive community because every dive accident was classified as "drowning". Sure, drowning is damn near always the actual cause of death in diving accidents, the real question should be why did this person drown?

I wonder, how familiar some of these coroners are who are stamping these dive accidents as "heart attack" actually are with diving physiology, particularly the advanced stuff that might come into play in rebreather accidents?

I'm no doctor but perhaps we'll get someone who is to chime in on this discussion.

Tom

 

[jbd]

that your recommendations will maximize dive safety and should be considered common sense, especially in the environments that are being disussed.

Scuba diving is all about reducing risks to an acceptable level. What exactly that acceptable level is, is for each diver to determine on their own. For some that means solo diving is OK. For others its good enough that others are in the area. For DIR folks---well it means something completely different from the others. For me it means no rebreather at this time since I don't understand what can make them fail.

I still think diving accidents should be analyzed and widely discussed in the diving community to enhance overall safety of a reasonably safe activity.

 

[Rick Murchison]

WreckWriter once bubbled...
I think the real issue here is perhaps the accuracy of the stated cause of death.

Let's think about this a little... A diver on a dive isn't in the sickbed. He/she is up and around, doing something pretty safe, as things to do go. What would you expect a jogger to die of on a jog? A hiker to die of on a hike? A walker to die of on a walk? Indeed, any apparently healthy person who suddenly drops dead usually does so from a CVA (heart attack or stroke). When it's not diving, we understand and we don't generally say "well, if he hadn't gotten up from the chair so fast it wouldn't have happened" or "gee, I wonder what he did to cause that?" (meaning what in his immediate activity precipitated the CVA) No, outside of diving we expect sudden death to be from CVA, and we're surprised whenever it's from something else.
The only wonder is that an even higher percentage of scuba deaths aren't attributed to CVA - the actual percentage is probably higher than the stats show, but the victim drowns before the CVA can kill 'em.
I for one am not surprised when the coroner rules "heart attack" - because that's what most ambulatory folks who suddenly die, die from.
Rick