Recreational Limits, confusing or is it just me?

[Tony387]

A lot of interesting points have been made in this thread. I have been OW certified for less than two years and am working towards my 100th dive. With few exceptions, all of my diving has been in low visibility water with temps dropping into the 40's this last winter. I have adhered to the 60 foot rule consistently throughout, more of out of conservatism and necessity due to the conditions in which I routinely dive, than anything else. It was and still is important to me to gradually increase my depth as my skills progress and I build muscle memory and develop the ability to deal with various situations under water. Time in the water is what develops skills and aptitude, not certifications. I have always been amazed by the number of new divers who routinely exceed what most would consider reasonable giving their experience. I've seen divers with less than 25 dives routinely dive to depths 25-35m without really understanding the potential hazards. An equipment malfunction or not monitoring your air is one thing at 45 ft. It is quite another at 90ft. I used to think that I was overly paranoid. Now, I think that many new divers think that getting a handful of cert cards prepares them for diving instead of real world, unsupervised, experience at depth. I do desire to dive deeper over time and maybe even pursue technical diving at some point, but only when I have paid my dues and know damn well that I am ready to progress. What's the rush? Dive often, learn much...and have fun!

 

[tdchandl]

So... I seem to recall a DAN related thread that implied that if you exceed 20meters and you are OW they may not insurance cover an injury. Any comments/thoughts with respect to how this general topic plays together with regards to DAN coverage (not to derail the OP). In that thread I had to seriously reevaluate my renewal of my membership and corresponding coverage.

 

[boulderjohn]

So... I seem to recall a DAN related thread that implied that if you exceed 20meters and you are OW they may not insurance cover an injury. Any comments/thoughts with respect to how this general topic plays together with regards to DAN coverage (not to derail the OP). In that thread I had to seriously reevaluate my renewal of my membership and corresponding coverage.

Your best bet is to go to the DAN site and see what it says for your level of coverage. I know my level (Preferred) has no limitations.

 

[DarinJ]

This has been interesting--the common ScubaBoard discussion about certification vs. training vs. experience. It does seem that most threads end up with this discussion. I'm going to add that my son was certified through SSI last summer and we were told he should not dive deeper than 60'. His JrOW cert card makes no mention of any depth limits or limits of any kind. When we took our drysuit cert course a month later, it was through PADI and the instructor told us that my son's limit was 40' until he took the Jr. AOW when his limit would increase to 60'.

Those 'limits' are unenforceable as no one checks on us when we are diving locally on our own, but I took them as suggestions from people who know more about diving than I do. His first summer of diving (fresh water lakes, diving 7mm wetsuits) we didn't go deeper than 40'. This summer, he has just reached 25 dives and we are slowly working deeper at our usual dive site to his self-enforced but agency suggested max depth of 60'--there's a neat wreck at 50 - 70' at our local site, so we've seen the top half of it. Have I taken him beyond his certification? Depends which agency you ask. Have I taken him beyond his training? Yes, but we've done it slowly and incrementally as a team. Are we going to take further training? Yes, once I figure out which of our local instructors will work best with us. Are we going to take further certifications? Maybe/probably/depends if/when we might need them for a particular dive trip with a particular operation or captain. I will always choose training over certifications.

Summary: I take depth 'limits' to be suggestions by divers with more knowledge and experience than I have. I will respect their suggestions, but I am responsible for my own (and my son's) diving progression. Our society (all of it, not just scuba) needs to focus more on taking responsibility for our own actions and decision and spend a lot less time worrying about what we are 'permitted' to do or who we can sue when things go wrong. The best waiver I've ever seen read simply, "I acknowledge that life is inherently dangerous."

 

[Edward3c]

This has been interesting--the common ScubaBoard discussion about certification vs. training vs. experience. It does seem that most threads end up with this discussion. I'm going to add that my son was certified through SSI last summer and we were told he should not dive deeper than 60'. His JrOW cert card makes no mention of any depth limits or limits of any kind. When we took our drysuit cert course a month later, it was through PADI and the instructor told us that my son's limit was 40' until he took the Jr. AOW when his limit would increase to 60'.

Those 'limits' are unenforceable as no one checks on us when we are diving locally on our own, but I took them as suggestions from people who know more about diving than I do. His first summer of diving (fresh water lakes, diving 7mm wetsuits) we didn't go deeper than 40'. This summer, he has just reached 25 dives and we are slowly working deeper at our usual dive site to his self-enforced but agency suggested max depth of 60'--there's a neat wreck at 50 - 70' at our local site, so we've seen the top half of it. Have I taken him beyond his certification? Depends which agency you ask. Have I taken him beyond his training? Yes, but we've done it slowly and incrementally as a team. Are we going to take further training? Yes, once I figure out which of our local instructors will work best with us. Are we going to take further certifications? Maybe/probably/depends if/when we might need them for a particular dive trip with a particular operation or captain. I will always choose training over certifications.

Summary: I take depth 'limits' to be suggestions by divers with more knowledge and experience than I have. I will respect their suggestions, but I am responsible for my own (and my son's) diving progression. Our society (all of it, not just scuba) needs to focus more on taking responsibility for our own actions and decision and spend a lot less time worrying about what we are 'permitted' to do or who we can sue when things go wrong. The best waiver I've ever seen read simply, "I acknowledge that life is inherently dangerous."

There are no dive police, but if there is an incident your insurance company may focus on the depth qualification limit, as to whether they will cover you or not. There have been a few UK nationals, on holiday abroad, who found they weren't covered after exceeding their qualification depth recommendations.

 

[Centrals]

Your best bet is to go to the DAN site and see what it says for your level of coverage. I know my level (Preferred) has no limitations.

This is on DAN SEAP.
Preferred Plan or Plus:
...required to demonstrate that he/she held an APPROPRIATE certification for the dive and was using appropriate breathing gas mixes and equipment.....
Even Advanced trimix or expedition trimix has training limit.

 

[Taliena]

it is confusing since the official rules are vague: "within training and experience". what kind of training? how much experience?

exactly. When are you an experienced diver? and when are you ready for technical diving?
A lot in diving is attitude and your own want to improve. And there is always something to improve, even for naturals, of fully tech qualified.
Deep diving is part of your mental capabilities too. All diving is. Cold and dark is more difficult than warm waters with a good viz.
As full trimix oc and mod3 ccr diver I don't have any limits on my diving according to the certs.
My healthinsurance does not ask for a cert. I only am not covered when doing cavediving. For that diving I have a DAN-insurance with a limit to 130m (if you want to go deeper you must sent them a diveplan and then you are covered if they accept).

Divecenters can give you limits, which is not strange becuase they have sometimes to deal with local rules. Then they ask for some kind of cert that they know what you should be able to do in diving. You can accept or not (and if I want to make a dive with that center, then I accept.) There is only 1 thing I absolutely refuse: a checkdive where I need to pay for and which is just to show them at 6m depth that you can clear your mask and not a normal dive.
I have done some ccr dives with a recreational divecenter where the divetime was limited to 60 minutes. Normally I would dive 2-3 hours, but now we accepted it and it was ok. They had nothing to complaign about our 'strange equipment' and we did just 60minutes (and not shorter of course ). If I dive with beginners, or teach, I won't do things that are outside certlimits or coursestandards. Or if divers on fundives won't go further, I respect that without problems. On most dives I am the most experienced diver. I respect the rules of the trainingagencies. But I cannot act as a police and give them a fine if they dive outside their certlimits which I have done in the past too becuase of slow courses/instructors. I can only discuss if it is not an good idea. And tell about the stupid things I did and warn them.

In France diving is regulated by law and if you have a CMAS 3* cert you can dive to 60m on single tank and air. By the way, not my choice.

 

[Kevrumbo]

Out in the weeds of another thread I found a discussion of the limits of various certifications and thought it would be interesting to start at that point and see where it goes.

It is my understanding that OW certification allows you to dive within recreational limits (130'), however PADI and others recommend your limit to 60', also it sounded like there was a recommended depth limit for training classes as well. In addition, recreational training agencies “recommend diving within your experience and training” which would mean to me that if you are trained in 30’ of water, then that should be your recommended limit rather than 60’.

Some Dive operations will enforce the recommended limits and others will let you plan your own dive within recreational limits under "my boat my rules" policies. So sorting this all out should be interesting.

What are the differences between recreational limits, recommended depth and recommended depth for training of OW, AOW, and Deep? Toss in a why if you like.

Wouldn't it be quite easy to stamp the depth limit on the card to stop any confusion?

Bob
--------------------------------------
“I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught.”
― Winston Churchill

Trained when J-valves solved the OOA problem.

Ok . . .now for an objective explanation in terms of breathing gas planning on the hazard of the newly certified BOW Diver going beyond the 18m Beginner/Novice OW Limit:

A Quick Contingency "Rock Bottom" Calculation and Gas Plan Estimate for an Open Water Dive to 30m/100'. . .

For a single 11 litre tank (AL80), a total of 11 litres/bar metric tank rating and a volume Surface Consumption Rate (SCR) of 22 litres/min -same as a pressure SCR of 2 bar/min*ATA (divide 22 litres/min by 11 litres/bar)- using an example NDL air dive to 30m (4 ATA) depth in Open Water.

Emergency Reserve/Rock Bottom pressure calculation, from 30 meters with one minute stops every 3 meters to the surface,
-->Just "tally the ATA's":
4.0
3.7
3.4
3.1
2.8
2.5
2.2
1.9
1.6
1.3

Sum Total: 26.5

Multiplied by 2 bar/min*ATA equals 53 bar Rock Bottom absolute reading remaining on your SPG. --this also happens to be the pressure in bar needed for one person in an emergency contingency to reach the surface with the above minimum decompression ascent profile.

So ideally for a two person buddy team, multiply 53 by 2 which is 106 bar for both to reach the surface (sharing in a buddy Out-ot-Gas contingency).

But realistically, for two experienced divers stressed: 106 bar plus 30% of 106 bar equals 138 bar Rock Bottom SPG reading.

For two novice divers stressed: 106 bar plus 100% of 106 bar equals 212 bar (!!!)
--->obviously then, two novice divers on single 11L tanks should not be diving to 30m for any significant length of time. . .

(Note: a full AL80/11L cylinder is 207 bar/3000psi).

 

[Redshift]

Why would you stop every 3m for a min from the bottom up during an emergency?!

 

[packrat12]

...For two novice divers stressed: 106 bar plus 100% of 106 bar equals 212 bar (!!!)
--->obviously then, two novice divers on single 11L tanks should not be diving to 30m for any significant length of time. . .

(Note: a full AL80/11L cylinder is 207 bar/3000psi).

Kevrumbo - This is for 2 Rec divers with no ceiling. Let's look at the air consumption during the emergency ascent. I will use a SAC of .8 for each diver.

100' ascent give a 50' average depth with a 3 min ascent time @ 30'/min.

50' = 2.52 ATA
consumption of 2 divers at .8: .8 * 2 * 2.52 = 4 ft3/min
3 min surface time = 12 ft3

Pressure used in an AL80: 12/(77/3000) = 467 PSI. Let us round this to 500 PSI.

So our expected air consumption is 500 PSI. Our ascent is a no-stop maybe even faster than 30'/min.

With a min of 1000 PSI in an AL80, 2 divers can easily make an ascent from 100'. They probably can do it all the way up from 800 PSI which would be the lowest PSI one should start the ascent anyway. Even if the divers both doubled air consumption (1.4 each as .8 is already very high), they would need 820 PSI. I think they could easily live.

As for dive time, with a .6 SAC, a single tank AL80 diver can expect 21 minutes at 100' with 1000 PSI left.