Regulators and Nitrox

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Hey,

Yea it is all hype. It's all a conspiracy to. It's also a marketing ploy to get your hard earned dollar.

What it does boil down to is if I walk into a shop and they don't adhere to the standards/specifications that should be enforced then I refuse to use their services and will never allow them to even touch my tank nor any other equipment.

So to keep a long story short if you want my business you must adhere to the strict standards. I do look at inspection reports, ask tons of questions on various things, find out about filter replacment procedures and the like.

Bottom line is my tank, my equipment, my life, my way.

Ed
 
Aquatech Villas DeRosa's fill station. Mexico rule #33: If it no longer rolls, it's a building.

They've been doing PP Nitrox and Trimix fills for years, not even a hint of a problem.

http://www.underctek.com/open/lore2001/FillStation.jpg (kinda big image)

As I've been saying, cleaning is good, but the fill rate is the most important part of the equation.

Roak
 
But I think I have to agree with Roakey on most if not all of his points. I too believe in O2 cleaning, but I don't believe that you can O2 clean a second stage, and most first stages have rubber/plastic diaphragms that make it impossible to o2 clean them as well. As for tanks, I truly believe that only tumbling them will clean them appropriately. However, MORE IMPORTANT than all of that -IS- fill rate. Adiabatic forces can/will cause a fire in materials that would not ignite with only a high Oxy ata. While a shop can't always regulate the cleanliness of a tank, they have COMPLETE control over the fill rate.

Blacknet, I hear you when it comes down to having it done my way, or I will find another vendor. That’s our right to vote with our wallets. Still, I think your stand on this issue is way too cautious. I am sure that the number of fires (due to excessive adiabatic issues or cleanliness issues) is incredibly small in comparison to the number of tanks filled. Does anyone have a SWAG on how many tanks are filled each year? A million or two, maybe more? Maybe lots more? That, in itself, dwarfs the number of explosions or fires. I do think that tank inspections keep the number to a minimum, but you just can't make these "idiot proof"... the idiots are just too ingenious!
 
Roak is right, fill rate is everything. I have seen 1200 psi of PURE 100% Oxygen put into a 10 year old dirty tank with no problems, just as I have seen 400 psi of 100% PURE Oxygen put into tanks several times, all with no problems. (I'd say many trimix divers, blenders and homebrewers have seen the same) Just my experiences....
Norm
 
Getting back to your original question syruss32: A friend once brought me a brand-new, still-in-the-box, "Nitrox-Ready" reg. He was going to use it for 100% pure oxygen service and since I had built several for myself, as well as a couple of close, friends he asked me to go through it* before he put it into service. (*Oxygen cleaning, viton o rings, halocarbon grease, etc) On the preliminary tear down I was removing the port plugs and right there under the HIGH PRESSURE port plug was a residual pocket of cutting oil from the machining operations at the factory!!! That's not even my definition of "AIR" ready! (Can you say Lipoid Pneumonia?) What if he had pressurized this reg rapidly with a hot mix, let alone pure oxygen, with that oil in there on the high pressure side? So much for nitrox ready or oxygen clean, huh? (Just my experiences)
Norm
 
Originally posted by NetDoc
He will probably faint dead away...
Not at all. I agree and disagree with concepts, ideas, philosophies, etc. I don't agree or disagree with people, though my Mr. Hyde may make it appear that way. :(

To future, and hopefully less lively disagreements:

*clink*

Roak
 
I just came back from Germany, and always find it fascinating to look at how they gear up for diving. German's tend to be risk averse and the people at there dive shop feel the USA and Asia are wreckless for not using DIN as the standard for regulators, but then I saw something that seems to be backfiring their concerns for diver safety. Any regulator used for Nitrox above 21% must be compatible with 100% Oxygen. The shop I visited didn't appear to offer it, but one diver I spoke with indicated that it simply wasn't worth the hassle in Germany.

I work as a professional risk management in medical device safety, and we always consider Risk/Benefit analysis. What I saw in Germany is such a tremendous amount of control over Nitrox, its seems to be deterring divers from using it. In my mind, wouldn't the overall benefit to health of the diving community come from reducing the much higher probability of decompression sickness. In the field of "Risk Management" its is very obvious to me, that the risks of harm from over-regulating nitrox have demonstrated (at least in Germany) a much higher risk of harm, by deterring divers from using breathing gases that certainly do reduce the risk of decompression sickness.

I believe DAN weighed in on this subject, using diver statistics. In medical device risk management, we look at actual patient injuries and death, not hypothetical risks that have likely been disproven by the same historical evidence.

From what I saw in Germany anyway, it seems their strict regulation for Nitrox (Regulators must be 100% oxygen rated when used with O2 above 21%), This would more likely to increase the likelihood of the bends by deterring divers from using Nitrox, which I observed it, is a deterrent in Germany.

In any case, scientists should be proving their theories in their labs, using models that simulate actual use of SCUBA divers, before trying to warn divers that have clearly not manifest themselves in the larger community. Saying something is "dangerous" when it has a probability of occurrence that is statistically far less likely than being hit by lightening, this seems questionable and would be professionally irresponsible in other highly regulated fields where risk management systems are routinely applied to resolve actual risks, with significant probabilities of occurrence.

And on the side of seat belts, Ralph Nader's fight to get seat belts into cars, contributed significantly to the reducing deaths during car accidents. So whoever is not wearing seat belts, is ignoring statistics based on real world data. However, that was before air-bags too, so who knows, maybe we don't need seat belts as much as we need air bags?
 
Grant, you are commenting on a thread from 2001 when manufacturers were trying to sell divers special "Nitrox Regulators". Most manufacturers have given up on this silliness and certify their regulators up to 36% O2. As to the reduction of DCS with nitrox, I can only see that being a factor if the diver was using nitrox and diving air tables. Also the diver needs to be aware of oxygen toxicity if going deep.

Is the rule in Germany governmental or industry? What do divers need to do for trimix?
 
Grant, be assured although any EAN > 23 should be treated like pure oxygen according to a industry engineer standard in the EC (EN 144-2/3) , the divers in Europe dive their G5/8 valves instead of the M26/2 ones with any gas.
 
Thank you Agility,

I contacted the dive shop in Frankfurt, and they couldn't/wouldn't give me any specifics, just "good luck" finding the information. So I did look harder on my own, and discovered the European Underwater Federation. So it does seem the European Competent Body CEN (Which operates under authority from the European Commission), has developed European Norms (EN standards), which were then transposed and agreed upon by ISO, bring them to international status.

I am quite familiar with this structure, and yet I see a couple of missing elements that I have not discovered. I want to start by saying, I am impressed with much of what the European Underwater Federation has done to harmonize the dive industry in Europe. I do have some questions, and some concerns however, and forgive me for not having all the information I might have needed, before drawing up this post. It is an fascinating area to me, since it is no small thing to bring the world together to agree on one set of diving rules, which is what I see has happened in Europe. I do find some things to be doubtful, in terms of the legal (public law) authority of the standards you mention.

What authority does the EUF have with regard to any legal framework. Legal (meaning Public Law). ISO is legally considered a "private law body". CEN doesn't write laws either, but voluntary standards,which may give a presumption of conformity with the legal requirements, but where is the legal, binding, Public Law issued by the European Commission (EC). I have not seen it. So it must be, at best, as "Scheme Owned" system for managing the dive industry, and each nation may elect to adopt it into law.


Simply put, it is not illegal to deviate from the European Norms.

I am not taking sides, just making some observations. I can't find anything to be "illegal", although if the dive shops find it financially impossible to operate outside of the framework established by the EUF, well then it would seem to any diver that it is some kind of law. The end result makes them buy a regulator that is rated for 100% O2, when the EAN mix is below below 40%. What was harder to grasp was that the manufacturer's recommendations are even to be ignored? This is something very unusual indeed. Keep in mind, standards do not LEAD technology. This is a dangerous precedent.

If a manufacturer recommends a regulator for a certain diving purposes, but the EUF and ISO standards prevent it, that is a problem. I have found evidence some evidence this may be happening.

Divers could, are being forced to buy 100% 02 compatible regulators, instead of other regulators that are better made for certain types of diving. What if the law forced someone to use a less reliable regulator, and an accident happened using the 100% 02 regulator, because it was less reliable? I have observed this at one highly recognized technical dive equipment manufacturer, selling both to the USA and Europe). They do not recommend buying the 100% 02 regulator, unless absolutely necessary by some kind of law?. They say, for reliability, they recommend the none 100% 02 version of the same regulator. The point is..

When we try to reduce one risk, sometimes there are consequences. So it better to be certain that there is a risk, and that the "risk control" approach doesn't introduce another problem. Since real world experience, and DAN has confirmed it statistically, fire hazards related to EAN up to 40% are nil, why then would anyone enforce a widespread approach to mitigating an absent risk, especially now that we know it introduces another.

Question - I am not sure why you placed an "EC" in front of a voluntary standard. "EC" usually refers to "European Commission" (e.g. reference to Public Law governing all of the EU member states). European Standards do not exist as law, unless they underpin a European Council Directive. CEN doesn't make laws, they however harmonize standards to them. Is their a European Regulation or European Directive (Public Law) that covers diving in Europe? I have never seen or found European Regulation or Council Directive, and I know where to look at Europa.

The EUF is a voluntary organization carrying industry stakeholders. If national or European law gives them any authority, I cannot find. Certainly German law may have done so, but did they actually pass a law enforcing all this?

The EUF certification scheme appears to be enforced by auditors in Austria, and technical authority originates from Austria as well from Austrian Standards?. This is a stronger indication that, if it is enforceable under any law (Public) it is far more confined to individual member states of the EU. However, the very fact that "Certifications" are being issued to ISO standards, without oversight from the National Accreditation Body in Austria, this would seem to deviate from the European Regulation (EC) No 765/2008. You might want to look into this European Regulation, since EUF would seem to be violating this (EC) regulation. The Auditing Organization in Australia may have to be cleared by Austria's Federal Ministry of Science, Research and Economy and the auditing organization may have to meet ISO 17024 or ISO 17021. The it would have the legal authority under European Law to certify dive shops to ISO standards. I work alongside the European cooperation on Accreditation, IAF and ISO, by coincidence.

Although I understand and to a great extend support the route EUF has taken toward harmonizing the dive industry under regional, and even international standards, I am aware that these standards remain voluntary, except when seeking approval from the EUF (which appears to be acting as a "scheme owner" of dive shop certification to ISO standards)

Returning to the subject at hand, I do believe technology must be allowed to surpass the limitations of standards. This is why, even in Europe, the Public Laws keep standards voluntary (although they should be considered). Surely those ISO standards will be revised, and I hope they make good use of statistics from actual use.

But mostly, I hate the idea that better equipment may not be used with higher levels of 02.

I think DIN regulators are indeed safer, and not much more expensive; However again, they are statistically not so much safer than what we are using in the United States.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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