IT HAS BEEN A LONG TIME . oops that caps... we used the victoms bc but had to be prepared to use our own in event of a victom with mt air bottle syndrome. another thing is the vic is above you they wont try to climb down, if they are below you and you are pulling them up (in a rescue) you have a panic'd diver using you aor a ladder to the surface. since in my opinion ( in recovery) the vic is history and you are not doing life saving efforts. the rapid accent is then moot to the vic. and a key element is not to become a vic your self. if they are heavy dropping thier weights may resolve the heavyness of the vic. if this is a rescue then things change a bit as the survivability of the vic is now in play again. it is a waste to bring a vic up just to drop them. the vics vest will make that a successful recovery or rescue?? . the legal minds will probably say we can not assume the vic is (expired) and can not use them liks a fishing bobber or leave them with a surface bouy marker. i would argue with that depending what i found. lost honrymoon wife, spear fishing or cut hose (ACCIDENT?????) I WOULD LEAVE THEM AND MARK THE POSITION tide and current providing. then let the officials do an investigation with out a fouled scene.
Rescuing an unconscious diver underwater.
- Thread starter ZapDiver
- Start date
Please register or login
Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.
Benefits of registering include
- Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
- A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
- You can make this box go away
IT HAS BEEN A LONG TIME . oops that caps... we used the victoms bc but had to be prepared to use our own in event of a victom with mt air bottle syndrome. another thing is the vic is above you they wont try to climb down, if they are below you and you are pulling them up (in a rescue) you have a panic'd diver using you aor a ladder to the surface. since in my opinion ( in recovery) the vic is history and you are not doing life saving efforts. the rapid accent is then moot to the vic. and a key element is not to become a vic your self. if they are heavy dropping thier weights may resolve the heavyness of the vic. if this is a rescue then things change a bit as the survivability of the vic is now in play again. it is a waste to bring a vic up just to drop them. the vics vest will make that a successful recovery or rescue?? . the legal minds will probably say we can not assume the vic is (expired) and can not use them liks a fishing bobber or leave them with a surface bouy marker. i would argue with that depending what i found. lost honrymoon wife, spear fishing or cut hose (ACCIDENT?????) I WOULD LEAVE THEM AND MARK THE POSITION tide and current providing. then let the officials do an investigation with out a fouled scene.
vjanelle
Contributor
Uhh(unless I'm reading your gibberish post incorrectly), the "victim" is alive and well and able to be turned into a patient at the surface until a doctor(or someone suitably qualified and equipped) declares them dead.
Doing otherwise can run you quite afoul of numerous good Samaritan laws which demand you provide help unless specifically requested otherwise. The only things you'll need to answer are the facts that you saw, which was how you saw the person, what you did to bring them up, and what life saving measures you performed until EMS took over. Anything else is paranoid bull****, and doing otherwise will in fact leave you open to issues.
Doing otherwise can run you quite afoul of numerous good Samaritan laws which demand you provide help unless specifically requested otherwise. The only things you'll need to answer are the facts that you saw, which was how you saw the person, what you did to bring them up, and what life saving measures you performed until EMS took over. Anything else is paranoid bull****, and doing otherwise will in fact leave you open to issues.
if this is my post you are questioning ,,,, please dont confuse the difference between rescue (live vic) and recovery ( dead vic) which was my point.
you dont take chances on recovery as you may on rescue . the parinoia about " having to do something" is to some extent a driving force behind diving solo. when i did the drills ,,,, as i tried to state ,,,,we used the vic's bc to raise. and did that after you calmed the one in need of rescue. if you are looking at a (expired diver you dont take the risk ,,, and i may not bring them up. i would just mark the area and leave things for authorities.
]
if that sounds cold look at how home shootings are handled if the vic can be treated that is what is done. if the vic is dead it stays there in place for perhaps 12-18 hours depending on the investigation agencies protocols and process. i would never leave a live victom on thier own my "buddy" or not. unless i thought that my attempt to bring them up would result in them taking me down.
surely one can not reject that concept. lastly i dont buddy dive i solo dive with a buddy. i have seen but one situation that a buddy system can work and that is a drift dive. i know many will argue that but i will just have to agree to disagree. the buddy diving is in my opinion a system that instills a false sense of well being by telling a diver thier buddy can save them. a new diver can't control thier own bouyancy let alone save anyone. a dive master may be a buddy for a newby but a newby is not a realistic buddy to the dm or any one else.. so the dm is solo when a problem arises.
when looking back to the original post i see that the topic refers to a live vic. for injecting my thoughts on the recovery scenario and not confining it to a rescue i apologize.
lastly you as a dm candidate...... i understand your position and your dedicated support of your training. whether it is fortunate or not the world seldom functions like the training manual says. also as as a dm i asume your responsibilities/liabilities are a bit different that and ow or aow which comprise the majority of those who dive. after all you are the one with the c-card that says you dont loose you cool. unlike the ow/aow.
dont get me wrong i respect the training level of the dm's but like the ow's the card does not make the dm . time experience and application of the training makes the dm. lets see ..... you can get dm with well less than 75 dives all in the same 30 ft pond. i have watched it happen. something is wrong with the system when an aow has to hand maid a dm. i know one that has done just that. never been in blue water never been past 40 ft outside of the aow cert of 100. this person speeks very much the same as you but lacks the experience to support his traing level. i highly suspect you are not in that classification by some of your post and your pic , so i am not challenging you on either your competancy or experience. i do know that all dm's i have dove with never present a dm card they provide an aow card to do a boat trip. when that is done the boat can not assume the responsibilities of the dm is handled by someone else. real world.....
Last edited:
jonathon50
Registered
this is the way i was taught. you find diver on the bottom, ascertain they are actually in trouble not fish watching! Empty your BCD or if in drysuit, open your deflator valve, (and theirs). check their SPG, check their kit is secure. if their regs are in their mouth, great, hold them there on the way up, if not,no point trying to put them back, the diver wont be able to hold them in place anyway. go behind diver, haul them into a kneeling position in front of you by lifting them by the tank. your right arm goes UNDER their right arm, if regs in hold them in, tilt their head back to allow air to escape on ascent. your left arm goes UNDER their left arm. if they DO have air, then you use their inflator to obtain NEUTRAL buoyancy. if not, your inflator goes over their left shoulder and you use your BCD to provide NEUTRAL buoyancy. start ascent at normal rate, i.e 18 mtres/60 ft per min. you have them tilted back slightly so you are under them looking up. at the surface, SCREAM for help! drop their weights, drop yours, get them buoyant, get yourself buoyant. check for breathing, (probably none) give TWO rescue breaths, start towing them towards, boat, shore, Quayside, giving ONE rescue breathe every 5 seconds, if you miss a beat, start over with TWO rescue breaths then continue with ONE rescue breath every 5 seconds. Be aware that you have just probably initiated a "recovery" of a dead body, i was told that only 1% of divers survive.
Bubbletrubble
Contributor
@jonathon50: I would consider two other courses of action before initiating an ascent using my BCD alone:
BTW, I hope you realize that this thread is a few months old.
- Oral inflation of the problem diver's BCD to get him neutrally buoyant.
- Ditching a little of the problem diver's weight (if possible) if the diver seems to be massively overweighted.
BTW, I hope you realize that this thread is a few months old.
jonathon50
Registered
No didnt realise post was that old! isnt there a risk anyway you try? never thought of adding air orally to their BCD, but in reality, would i? probably not, would be more concerned in getting them to the surface. is dumping some of their weight a good idea before you get them to the surface? surely i want them to ascend at a safe rate for both of us? if i felt them slipping and couldnt do anything about it, my fingers are already on the dump/inflator buttons anyway, but your fear of a runaway ascent on my part is still food for thought!
Bubbletrubble
Contributor
An approach that many rescue classes teach is: Stop. Breathe. Think. Act.
That "thinking" phase is very important. During the class, it's so easy to get lulled into a false sense of security by memorizing what to do in each rescue scenario. Students often parrot back whatever the "textbook" response is. This really isn't helpful because over time (and without review) the student will likely forget the memorized response. Moreover, the real-world scenario might introduce other important issues that need to be addressed -- issues that aren't accounted for in the "textbook" response.
In the given scenario, ascending is much easier when the ascent is initiated with the victim being neutrally buoyant.
Related to your proposed response, here are some other things to think about:
- How much maximal lift does your BCD have?
- If the victim's BCD is completely empty, he's wearing a thick wetsuit, and he's carrying all of the lead needed to be properly weighted, at depth will your BCD have enough lift to at least get you and the victim neutrally buoyant?
- What would you do if, depending on the circumstances, you couldn't get underneath the victim?
I never said that any course of action would be devoid of risk. The challenge is to act in such a way that gives the victim the best chance of a successful outcome while at the same time maintaining your risk of getting hurt at an acceptable level.
jonathon50
Registered
whats th emost likely reason they're on the bottom in that state? no air! so, ergo, cant use their BCD! use yours, if regs in their mouth, hold them there, if not dont bother, they cant hold them anyway. all your aiming to do is vent air from their lungs as you rise. use your BCD to obtain neutral buoyancy, have your self so they are above you and slowly ascend, letting air out as per NORMAL ascent.
Just about everything here appears correct. Any professional rescuer will tell you the absolute most critical part of any rescue is that your safety always always always comes first. Water rescues provide a very unique challenge to this unbending rule, and is really one of the reasons that I think that the rescue diver class for lay rescuers is a very poor and ultimately dangerous idea. Water rescues are extremely extremely dangerous, 100 times out of 100 a concious vic will climb up on top of you and proceed to drown you dead in order to say afloat, it is a simple reflex response, it happens every time. This is why it is so important to make sure you always approach your victim from behind, and if at depth, maintain your safe ascent as number one priority, and use their bc for buoyancy. The only difference between yourself and a panic stricken diver is the state of mind you carry with you as you enter the water.
couple things posted here that I wanted to add to. There is never gong to be a reason to do a pulse check for any drowning vic while in the water, and unless you are a first responder you should not waste time looking for a pulse regardless.
--2 out of 10 times that an average EMT during an actual emergency checks for a pulse on a victim they either miss a pulse that is present but maybe thready or hit a pulse that isn't there (generally their own thumb). Compressions must be done on a hard flat surface regardless and jsut as sure as i am that hte sun will rise tommorow i am sure that a unconcious vic with no breath sounds is seconds away from going pulseless.
the reason most unconcious vic's suffer pulmonary trauma during rescue is that even though they are unconcious, air is still unable to escape the lungs either at all or at a rate comprable to what is required during a controlled ascent. This is the exact same reason that those of you who have taken CPR have been taught how to do a head tilt chin lift manuever to check for breathing and give breaths, with the chin down to the chest, the tongue will settle in the throat and block the airway.
Just about every single thing you said here is incorrect. The only person legally allowed to declare someone dead outside of a hospital setting is the M.E. there are a few small exceptions such as a casae of traumatic decapitation etc. but everyone goes to the hospital dead or not.
You are excatly 100 percent mistaken regarding good sam. there is no duty to act for any layperson in any state in the US. THERE ARE A FEW PHRASES YOU SHOULD GET FAMILAR WITH IF YOU PLAN TO DEMAND THAT YOUR GOING TO PROVIDE HELP TO A CONSCIOUS BUT UNWILLING VICTIM. Implied consent, Expressed consent. and Assault.
The good sam as it applies to lay rescuers is made up of three sections. One you must only act in the best interest of the patient, two you can only act within you own scope of expertise, CPR, open airway whatever (no magyver stuff) and three is you choose to get involvd you must accompany that victim until they are turned over to someone with equal or greater training, otherwise you have abandoned them which is also a crime.
Getting back to what KWS said, I have one save in the water, and I will never assume anyone I see who needs help is dead, its completely irrelevent. The only thing that matters is your safety no matter what. Then we need to get them to the surface, everything else gets put on hold until then.
In survival medicine theres something called the rule of threes. 3 minutes w/o air, 3 hours w/o shelter days w/o water weeks w/o food and 3 months wihtout hope. the expectionto to that is drowning victims, chocking victims, fire/burns and dangerous situations. 80 fsw is both dangerous and drowning so you fix that first before moving to anything else.
also I would never risk the possibility of saving life for a crime scene or anything else except myself of my buddy/partner. Dont worry about it, uness its a hazard to you get them to the surface, dumb their lead inflate bc and if you cant do anything then don't. the worst thing you can do is nothing and the only thing you should try to do is leave theem doing better than how you found them. dead and not missing is better than dead and on the bottom of hte ocean.
Similar threads
