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Robbing Paul to pay Peter... a disturbing trend with Revo Rebreathers
- Thread starter The Chairman
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I'm sure that's it.....
OP
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
We lost a bit over two hours of posts due to our server move today. This wasn't the only thread affected and we are still working through a few issues. We should be a lot faster after all the bugs are worked out.
Oh, HELL NO!! Keep the government out of this; it will result in higher costs for everyone.
Agree 100%.
It's a bummer that Jim got taken by revo... sometimes you have to chalk it up as lesson learned, get the word out about your experience, and move on.
As a potential customer, I started researching rebreathers last year. There was not a situation where "all signs point to revo". Teach and sell a different rebreather.
Of course.. with all the used revo's on the market lately, maybe revo will now be the lowest cost option
Sounds like you're telling him to quit. I totally disagree. Yes, after fighting the good fight, but not now.
I don't think either one of this two gentlemen play a game of cricket!!!
I appreciate NetDoc for starting this thread. Overall, ... well ... let's just say that as a future CCR customer, this thread has given me pause such that I will not only consider the price/features/maintainability/support/etc., but also business policies.
And I'm quite certain, I'm not the only person on SB who is thinking this. Some people may want to consider the possibility of lost potential sales.
This isn't good people. One of my best diving instructors said to me that the dive shops don't realize that their competition is not each other, but rather the kayak shops, the bike shops, and so on. I don't think this sort of controversy is good for the CCR market (or scuba diving in general). People will spend their outdoor activity dollars (or whatever your currency is) in some way. I'd prefer it to be for diving. Just my 2 cents. I'll go back to studying for my IE now.
And I'm quite certain, I'm not the only person on SB who is thinking this. Some people may want to consider the possibility of lost potential sales.
This isn't good people. One of my best diving instructors said to me that the dive shops don't realize that their competition is not each other, but rather the kayak shops, the bike shops, and so on. I don't think this sort of controversy is good for the CCR market (or scuba diving in general). People will spend their outdoor activity dollars (or whatever your currency is) in some way. I'd prefer it to be for diving. Just my 2 cents. I'll go back to studying for my IE now.
Nuribromanski
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paulraymaekers
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this is my last reply on this thread: the reason is explained below
I have answered multiple questions clearly in my previous posts, but they have gone, so I will just for the last time write it again. I will try point by point.
1 should everybody who buys a rebreather automatically be allowed to become instructor?
in my opinion, of course not, as not everybody will be a good instructor, and you can only have a limited number of instructors per area: because every manufacturer requires that an instructor does a minimum number of courses every year, so he keeps his training skills high, he dives the unit a lot under training conditions, he needs to regularly invest in the latest equipment (as an instructor should dive the latest version/electronics of the rebreather, he must be able to earn money by having enough sales and courses to make it profitable, so he (/she) can have a solid business that lasts many years.
Suppose that we did the following: every year we allow X new instructors in an area, but we still require from the previous instructors that they do 3 unit specific courses every year. the newcomers will recruit some students, friends, so they have the minimum number for that year, but the instructors of the previous year don't get the needed number... should we now fire them, because they don't have the minimum required numbers of trainings that year? Would that be a correct attitude? I would be slaughtered for this if I would do this!
So it is clear that we regulate the number of instructors, so that the really active ones can build experience, establish a good working business, so that at the end, the client gets what he needs: long term stability!
And long term customer satisfaction is what the rebreather business needs!
2 should every dive operation automatically be allowed to offer training on a specific rebreather?
Again, and for the same reasons as above, in my opinion no! Because this will be negative for the customer at the end. A manufacturer carefully chooses the operations that can promote and serve its product the best way, so that after many years, the customers still have a solid base where they can turn to.
Rebreather business is completely different from OC, 'mass market product'. Rebreather business requires a direct contact between manufacturer, trainer, service provider, local support, and customer. You can only achieve this when you limit this to a small number of players.
It’s not like selling masks and fins, where companies come and go like the wind blows. Almost like 6 months internet selling setups.
No rEvo customer would be happy if he always has to turn to another local operator who shows up, and later disappears again. Rebreathers are bought for a long term 'engagement'. and I as manufacturer have to guarantee this to my client, that he will still be taken care of after many years: so how can I do this: only by working with a limited number, well supported operators in the area where the customer lives.
Does this mean we dictate where someone should buy a unit and take a training?
No, of course not, as any customer can choose the instructor of their choice, can travel anywhere they want, and can buy a unit anywhere in the world.
3 is Jim being treated differently from other instructors? Is Jim not allowed to do something, where others are allowed?
No, clearly not, as any instructor that would have done what Jim did, would see the same things happening. (Ask any ACTIVE rEvo instructor, you will get the same answer)
this is what happened, and what no other instructor did:
- Jim had an area, where he was the only guy to advertise, sell units, approach local people. No other instructor was allowed to recruit clients, so Jim could perfectly start up a business, invest, start selling, and establish a long term good turning business. As this is what I want, and what a customer needs: a long turning relationship with a local instructor dealer, so that if, after years, you need support locally, you can still find it. This is what is important for the customer: long duration local support: that is also the business model I want to achieve. Local people with lots of experience that can help you out when you need it.
- For some reason, that local good turning business setup did not happen, or it was not what Jim was looking for, and Jim choose to move out of there, and go somewhere else.
- So Jim moves to an area where another instructor dealer has done a lot of work, has invested heavily to start a good running business, one that has a long term option. This seems to be proven, as many people are jealous of the success of that business, and want to profit from it. So Jim started a new living in that area
- then Jim starts to work for a local operator that wants to go into direct competition with the good running business, and started to actively recruit local clients. (No other instructor has done this)
I told Jim that this was not appropriate, and it was not what we agreed upon, and Jim knows this. So I told Jim he could not start to operate where he lives now, as it is not in the interest of a long duration, customer satisfaction business model.
So is Jim being treated different from any other instructor? No, clearly not, as any other instructor that would do what Jim did, would see the same consequences.
But now here we are, Jim is not happy, as he thought that I would have accepted his business move, we had lengthy discussion on this, by mail, we had personal discussion at DEMA about this, I had quite some 'group pressure' at DEMA to make me change my mind, but in the interest of long duration customer care, why would I do this?
Don’t understand me wrong, I can understand why people decide to change the direction of their professional live, they are free to do of course, but they should also accept the consequences.
Now Jim starts a campaign, using a group of friends, to work in favor of his cause, he gives them his side of the story, and of course, in diving, you don't only have friends, but also people that for some reason don't like you, or don't like a competitor of them, and then this discussion starts on a forum.
What the friends and followers don’t see yet, is that the cause has changed. Jim knows that I have to hold this position, and he knows that I will not approve him as CCR rEvo trimix instructor, so after the lengthy DEMA discussion, Jim already made up his mind he would stop training rEvo: he put his rebreather for sale.
But the evil is done, and now Jim starts to develop his ‘grudge’ against me and my company: this post on Scubaboard comes up: anything that serves the new cause, to damage the reputation of my company and myself, the reputation of hard working active rEvo instructors, is good.
None of the active rEvo instructors, that also visit north Florida for training and cave diving, have ever done anything that would harm Jim’s business in that area: not a single unit has been sold in that area through another rEvo instructor: so why is Jim accusing his fellow instructors of something that never happened?
I know, and Jim and his friends know, that this campaign is set up to harm the rEvo reputation, so to prepare for the new units he will teach in the future. (the negotiations with the manufacturers of the new units already started at DEMA, long before the thread came alive).
But it also harms those good and active rEvo instructors, the ones we fully support as they do a good job, and that is absolutely unfair!.
The worst of all, this campaign harms the customer, as it fights against a well working business model that supports customers in the long end.
It is time to say goodbye Jim, go your way, be successful in your new live, and become happy again!
Paul
I have answered multiple questions clearly in my previous posts, but they have gone, so I will just for the last time write it again. I will try point by point.
1 should everybody who buys a rebreather automatically be allowed to become instructor?
in my opinion, of course not, as not everybody will be a good instructor, and you can only have a limited number of instructors per area: because every manufacturer requires that an instructor does a minimum number of courses every year, so he keeps his training skills high, he dives the unit a lot under training conditions, he needs to regularly invest in the latest equipment (as an instructor should dive the latest version/electronics of the rebreather, he must be able to earn money by having enough sales and courses to make it profitable, so he (/she) can have a solid business that lasts many years.
Suppose that we did the following: every year we allow X new instructors in an area, but we still require from the previous instructors that they do 3 unit specific courses every year. the newcomers will recruit some students, friends, so they have the minimum number for that year, but the instructors of the previous year don't get the needed number... should we now fire them, because they don't have the minimum required numbers of trainings that year? Would that be a correct attitude? I would be slaughtered for this if I would do this!
So it is clear that we regulate the number of instructors, so that the really active ones can build experience, establish a good working business, so that at the end, the client gets what he needs: long term stability!
And long term customer satisfaction is what the rebreather business needs!
2 should every dive operation automatically be allowed to offer training on a specific rebreather?
Again, and for the same reasons as above, in my opinion no! Because this will be negative for the customer at the end. A manufacturer carefully chooses the operations that can promote and serve its product the best way, so that after many years, the customers still have a solid base where they can turn to.
Rebreather business is completely different from OC, 'mass market product'. Rebreather business requires a direct contact between manufacturer, trainer, service provider, local support, and customer. You can only achieve this when you limit this to a small number of players.
It’s not like selling masks and fins, where companies come and go like the wind blows. Almost like 6 months internet selling setups.
No rEvo customer would be happy if he always has to turn to another local operator who shows up, and later disappears again. Rebreathers are bought for a long term 'engagement'. and I as manufacturer have to guarantee this to my client, that he will still be taken care of after many years: so how can I do this: only by working with a limited number, well supported operators in the area where the customer lives.
Does this mean we dictate where someone should buy a unit and take a training?
No, of course not, as any customer can choose the instructor of their choice, can travel anywhere they want, and can buy a unit anywhere in the world.
3 is Jim being treated differently from other instructors? Is Jim not allowed to do something, where others are allowed?
No, clearly not, as any instructor that would have done what Jim did, would see the same things happening. (Ask any ACTIVE rEvo instructor, you will get the same answer)
this is what happened, and what no other instructor did:
- Jim had an area, where he was the only guy to advertise, sell units, approach local people. No other instructor was allowed to recruit clients, so Jim could perfectly start up a business, invest, start selling, and establish a long term good turning business. As this is what I want, and what a customer needs: a long turning relationship with a local instructor dealer, so that if, after years, you need support locally, you can still find it. This is what is important for the customer: long duration local support: that is also the business model I want to achieve. Local people with lots of experience that can help you out when you need it.
- For some reason, that local good turning business setup did not happen, or it was not what Jim was looking for, and Jim choose to move out of there, and go somewhere else.
- So Jim moves to an area where another instructor dealer has done a lot of work, has invested heavily to start a good running business, one that has a long term option. This seems to be proven, as many people are jealous of the success of that business, and want to profit from it. So Jim started a new living in that area
- then Jim starts to work for a local operator that wants to go into direct competition with the good running business, and started to actively recruit local clients. (No other instructor has done this)
I told Jim that this was not appropriate, and it was not what we agreed upon, and Jim knows this. So I told Jim he could not start to operate where he lives now, as it is not in the interest of a long duration, customer satisfaction business model.
So is Jim being treated different from any other instructor? No, clearly not, as any other instructor that would do what Jim did, would see the same consequences.
But now here we are, Jim is not happy, as he thought that I would have accepted his business move, we had lengthy discussion on this, by mail, we had personal discussion at DEMA about this, I had quite some 'group pressure' at DEMA to make me change my mind, but in the interest of long duration customer care, why would I do this?
Don’t understand me wrong, I can understand why people decide to change the direction of their professional live, they are free to do of course, but they should also accept the consequences.
Now Jim starts a campaign, using a group of friends, to work in favor of his cause, he gives them his side of the story, and of course, in diving, you don't only have friends, but also people that for some reason don't like you, or don't like a competitor of them, and then this discussion starts on a forum.
What the friends and followers don’t see yet, is that the cause has changed. Jim knows that I have to hold this position, and he knows that I will not approve him as CCR rEvo trimix instructor, so after the lengthy DEMA discussion, Jim already made up his mind he would stop training rEvo: he put his rebreather for sale.
But the evil is done, and now Jim starts to develop his ‘grudge’ against me and my company: this post on Scubaboard comes up: anything that serves the new cause, to damage the reputation of my company and myself, the reputation of hard working active rEvo instructors, is good.
None of the active rEvo instructors, that also visit north Florida for training and cave diving, have ever done anything that would harm Jim’s business in that area: not a single unit has been sold in that area through another rEvo instructor: so why is Jim accusing his fellow instructors of something that never happened?
I know, and Jim and his friends know, that this campaign is set up to harm the rEvo reputation, so to prepare for the new units he will teach in the future. (the negotiations with the manufacturers of the new units already started at DEMA, long before the thread came alive).
But it also harms those good and active rEvo instructors, the ones we fully support as they do a good job, and that is absolutely unfair!.
The worst of all, this campaign harms the customer, as it fights against a well working business model that supports customers in the long end.
It is time to say goodbye Jim, go your way, be successful in your new live, and become happy again!
Paul
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A thousand word essay, and yet you still don't answer the simple question presented to you.
You sir, should go into politics.
You sir, should go into politics.
I agree! Mr 0bama complained the same way, that the reporters kept asking the same questions and 0bama protested that he answered them.
Apparently, both of you are blind to the fact that simply restating policy does not answer the question.
In this consumer's view, the rEvo policies are harmful to the free choice of the consumer.
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