Safety in training

[DeepSeaDan]

...modern scuba training by n' large promotes diving as a pursuit achievable by the masses, thus many folks are showing up at the door with less watermanship, less physical fitness, & a desire to be spoon-fed the knowledge required to pass as quickly, as cheaply, & as painlessly as possible.

Enter the modern diving Instructor.

Depending on the Instructor's experience ( both diving & teaching ), a student may get anywhere from the bare minimum ( or in some instances, regretably - less than the standards require ), to a course exceeding the minimum standards by whatever degree according to the personal philosophy of the Instructor.

As a personal choice, I have never subscribed to the "FUN!-FUN!-FUN!", "High-Fiving" "rah-rah-rah" sell-job for the sport of diving. I prefer a more serious, sober approach. I call this "Proper Attitude Construction", & it goes something like this:

"Diving is an inherently risky pursuit. It can be safely enjoyed if you do the following: Start out slow, careful & easy; continually make an HONEST self-appraisal of your capabilities & limitations, & plan your experiences accordingly; seek out effective training prior to attempting dives beyond the confines of your open water training; & above all - maintain a healthy respect for the element you are visiting, as it can be very unforgiving."

Regards,
DSD

 

[AquaDuck]

I agree with to comment it depends more on the instructor than the agency.

There isn't much policing the Agency could do on the instructors, but the instructor knows he has to teach correctly or he could face a mighty law suit later.

PADI follows a very stringent quality control process to ensure that Instructors keep in line with the standards and procedures. Students are often randomly contacted for Total Quality Assurance (TQA) interviews after a new Instructor has been certified - just to make sure that he/she is putting to good use the knowledge gained on the IDC.
Then also it is the responsibility of all instructors to report any incidents they witness where an instructor is violating protocol. PADI's Quality Assurance team then launches an investigation by again contacting students to verify that the instructor has been following procedures properly. If it is found that he/she has been flying under the line, PADI issues a warning first to the instructor; warnings become suspensions and eventualy expellations if it is consistently found that the instructor does not keep the standards.

I'd say PADI pays pretty close attention to making sure that the standards and procedures are followed. That having been said however, I agree that it depends on the Instructor you get as a student - not all people make good instructors who can connect with their students and instill a sense of pride in their skills learnt on their courses. I guess it's like all teachers - you get the good ones and you get the bad ones.

 

[AquaDuck]

Hi,

On travelling in Europe I have came across different levels of training required BEFORE being let loose in open water.

I personally have been trained by BSAC in Scotland to what, in my own opinion, to be a very high standard compared to some of my European counterparts.

What I would like to know is how does training compare in the USA, Canada etc. to Europe.

I have been certified with PADI throughout all my diving courses. My wife was justing completing her 2-star and nitrox course with a CMAS club at the University she was busy doing her master's degree at the time, when I met her (from outside the diving circles we both frequented). Her instructor was a downright arrogant moron who enjoyed flirting with students 10 years younger than him and seeking any opportunity he could get to get laid. Nevertheless, being head of the medical department at the University and chairman of the Underwater club, he knew his stuff when it came to diving. My wife's 2-star (equivalent to Advanced Open Water) and Nitrox courses were very difficult and comprehensive to say the least. I studied the materials with her as I was interested so I got first hand experience of her CMAS course.
The exams and course materials were however written and compiled by the instructor himself and the exams for the certifications were set up himself. They were very good, but they did not have to adhere to some CMAS gobal policy or anything. This means that a CMAS 2-star certified by one instructor is not necessarily as well trained as the next. Which is why we like the PADI way and why she has since crossed over.

 

[TheRedHead]

However, I am aware that you can go quite far with PADI (Advanced open water) without touching on any rescue skills - I believe this is wrong.

AOW doesn't mean you've gone far. In some cases it means 9 total dives.

 

[HowardE]

Being a complete novice (only 50 dives), I would have presumed that in any orginisation there would be a policing of instructors to ensure a consistent level of training.

I have been taught thoroughly rescue skills from a very early stage in my diving. I feel this should be the same with all orgainsations. However, I am aware that you can go quite far with PADI (Advanced open water) without touching on any rescue skills - I believe this is wrong.

Your idealistic views are nice to see... (but unrealistic)

Just keep in mind that "Rescue" is another course offered by most training agencies. Training agencies are businesses that are in it to make a profit.

If fully training everyone was a primary concern of the agency, then they couldn't sell more courses.

Not to say that it's bad to learn these skills, or that more stringent standards should apply, but pretty much, the Basic OW course teaches you how to basically plan and execute a dive with the most basic skills required. PADI isn't there to hold my hand, and make sure that I will be a safe diver, they (from my experience) just want me to pass the classes, and complete the required skills.

Like Red said - AOW can be completed immediately after basic OW. There is no pre-requisite for number of completed dives.

To be perfectly honest (NOT TROLLING) - PADI encourages people to take the "Dive Master Challenge" and people can be DM's with less than 100 dives! I think this is rediculous.

 

[AquaDuck]

...people can be DM's with less than 100 dives! I think this is rediculous.

If the DM student has successfully demonstrated mastery of the required skills during the DM course and has successfully shown that their skills are fully up to standard with the requirements for the certification level why should he/she not be allowed to qualify for the certification?

It is not the DMs responsibility to teach divers how to dive, as certified divers they should already have mastered their skills on their own training courses. The DM really is there only to act as a tour guide, to show the group around the dive spot they visit, to assist divers with queries, problems, and concerns, to make the dives fun and enjoyable and to effectively manage emergencies when they arrise. A well trained DM with 61 dives in his/her log book can do this. The more he/she does this after their first 61 dives the more they will learn to do it better in the future. The best teacher will always be the water and real life experience.

I fail to see how restricting DM qualifications to a minimum requirement of 100+ dives will make any DM beter skilled than 60 dives (PADI requirement). I do agree that you get excellent DMs and then you get the really, really bad ones, but I attribute this more to the training they received from their instructors than whether they had done sixety and not a 100+ dives.

 

[TheRedHead]

I fail to see how restricting DM qualifications to a minimum requirement of 100+ dives will make any DM beter skilled than 60 dives (PADI requirement). I do agree that you get excellent DMs and then you get the really, really bad ones, but I attribute this more to the training they received from their instructors than whether they had done sixety and not a 100+ dives.

A Dive Master implies someone who has mastered diving and I don't think you can at 60 dives. There are people who go nonstop from OW to Divemaster without getting any real independent experience. OW divers are often under the false impression that DMs are highly experienced and trustworthy, when that is often not the case. One can hope that the charter boats don't actually hire these instant DMs. Why does technical diving require 100+ dives, 25 over 100 feet where you are risking only your life and Dive Master have fewer requirements where you are responsible for other people's lives? That has never made sense to me.

 

[HowardE]

A Dive Master implies someone who has mastered diving and I don't think you can at 60 dives. There are people who go nonstop from OW to Divemaster without getting any real independent experience. OW divers are often under the false impression that DMs are highly experienced and trustworthy, when that is often not the case. One can hope that the charter boats don't actually hire these instant DMs. Why does technical diving require 100+ dives, 25 over 100 feet where you are risking only your life and Dive Master have fewer requirements where you are responsible for other people's lives? That has never made sense to me.

Exactly - I agree 100%

I would also add that...
Some of the "fast track" DM's have only dived in one place - for their entire "career" of possibly 2 months (if that) - You could go from uncertified to DM in a month if you tried. Does that really make a "master"?

I've actually spoken to DM's that have ONLY dived in Fort Lauderdale, EVER. Not even made the short drive to Key Largo, Boynton, WPB, or Jupiter even.

 

[AquaDuck]

A Dive Master implies someone who has mastered diving and I don't think you can at 60 dives. There are people who go nonstop from OW to Divemaster without getting any real independent experience. OW divers are often under the false impression that DMs are highly experienced and trustworthy, when that is often not the case. One can hope that the charter boats don't actually hire these instant DMs. Why does technical diving require 100+ dives, 25 over 100 feet where you are risking only your life and Dive Master have fewer requirements where you are responsible for other people's lives? That has never made sense to me.

I agree with you in that I also do not like the idea of a DM running from OW to DM in 2 months flat with no experience. But then it depends on what they do in those two months and where they do it. My DM students are drilled on their own diving and rescue skills in preparation for their IDC, whether they wind up signing up for IDC or not. I will pit my DM's against any other student with 100+ dives and I'm confident that their skills are as well mastered as the next entrant for IDC. The point is you can master diving skills by 60 dives *if* those 60 dives are made to count.

Let us make this very clear, the DM is never directly responsible for someone else's life, that is the responsibility of each and every individual diver - why do you think you sign liability waivers when you check in at your dive resort? The DM is responsible for doing his/her utmost to manage emergencies when they arise and assist any diver in distress, but if a diver breaches the DM's dive rules for the dive or violates common diving standards, it is that diver that is responsible for any problems, not the the DM.

I will say this again - diving experience is a bit like pilot training, the more hours you clock behind the throttle the better the smoother the take offs, the flights and the landings. Likewise a *well trained* DM who starts to lead dives after 60 dives is starting to learn about leading dives in *practice* just as much as any new instructor learns about training students in practice after they have been newly qualified. You can not simulate this kind of experience in a class room, or on single dives where the DM only dives with his/her buddy to make up those 40 more dives to reach the 100 dives minimum you require.

The DM is not absolved of any responsibility however, if conditions are not conducive to conducting planned dives safely it is the DMs duty to cancel the dive. If there are any problems with the facilities provided by a diving resort or LDS, the boat for example, it is the DM's task to consult the skipper of the boat and to make sure that the boat is safe to use. It is the DM's task (and actually all divers') responsibility to check with the DM and skipper that they have proper emergency plans and equipment available for dealing with emergencies - stuff like do they have oxygen with *working* 02 masks, proper communication equipment to request medical assistance etc. either on the boat or available on the beach if it is a shore entry.

I'm curious though, what part of recreational diving is impossible to master in 60 dives but can be in 40 more?

 

[HowardE]

I'm curious though, what part of recreational diving is impossible to master in 60 dives but can be in 40 more?

Personally, my buyoancy improved immensely, SAC, trim, etc. Even from Dive 100 to almost 200 now for me, and I can see how much my skills have improved in that time frame as well.

Why don't you start a thread and ask exactly that, and see what people have to say. I bet you'll find that a lot of people here would agree that the amount of experience you acquire from dive 50 - dive 100 is HUGE.

I know you're new here on the board... So check around.

I have also seen people on the board (no names) who are DM's who post pretty stupid questions IMO, and I would hope that DM's would know the answers to those questions, without having to post their questions on ScubaBoard.