Safety Stand Down - Power SCUBA - San Diego CA

[ScubaSteve858]

I have been a power scuba member for almost 2 years. The club has made it possible for me to dive when I couldn't find anyone else to go with. I was freshly certified and hungry for experience but everyone certified in my life didn't want to forge the cold SD water. I met a wonderful dive buddy on my first meet up. We dove almost weekly and I learned so much from him. The boat trips they arrange are the best deal in town and I watch like a hawk to catch them before they sell out. I like to drink but never the night before I dive, or the day of out of safety. I do enjoy a beer or 2 after at the pizza parlor or while I clean my gear at home. I'm not sure what the people bashing PS as a party club are talking about but this is my experience... never have I participated or seen people heavily drinking the night before or day of a dive trip. I have always been impressed by Bill Powers and the PS hosts safety briefings. If power scuba was not around my diving experience would be limited to vacation and the very occasional local dive. I love this group and have only experienced parties after the trip or dive when it is appropriate. Haters back off!

 

[VR78]

Sorry, but your's is a pretty silly analogy. Don't underestimate the value of a safety stand down in the aftermath of a series of accidents or incidents.

I respect your opinion. And I stand by mine: responsible adults generally do not need to be told to go to their room and think about what they've done.

 

[Power Scuba]

"One of our club members was driving under influence and crashed his car. We suggest that all club members refrain from driving for a week to reflect on that unfortunate event". Looks like a bit of an overreaction and unnecessary drama to me.

Vr, you of course are welcome to your opinion. By the same token, as the leader of the Org, I am entitled to take such actions as I deem necessary to educate my members, help keep them safe, and protect my company. I take that responsibility very seriously

As has been pointed out, the idea of a "stand-down" is well known and respected in many circles including aerospace and military... both of which I hail from. Stand-downs offer an org and it's members the opportunity to stop and reflect on what (and how) they've been doing and gather suggestions for best practices and develop new and improved methods.

I have 3,800 members in my group. With an org that large, it's impossible to police it (nor do we want to) or get everyone to always act in one certain manner. Rather, we mandate adherence to the basic rules of diving, educate without being pedantic, and remove the occasional member who purposefully refuses to follow the rules.

To answer another comment in this thread: Power Scuba is not a dive shop. We do not offer training nor do we sell gear. We're a 501(c)(3) non-profit org, incorporated in California. We're a club, group, movement, co-op, and advocate for the u/w environment.

Our stand-down does not demand that our members not dive for it's duration. Rather we suggest our members take a collective breather and reflect on safety in general as well as the safety messages I'll be sending to them through this week.

We HAVE directed our volunteer staff not to host any official dives during the stand-down. I deem that appropriate and thoughtful.

One case of the bends with no visible causation is weird. Two in two months is way weird. (notwithstanding that the second member had been drinking the night before. (He now says he actually had very little to drink, but did indeed only get four hours of sleep the night before.) Rather than stand back and say, "Well, that's pretty strange, but we have almost four thousand members so I have to expect an accident now and then", I chose to take an action and do my best to help my large group.

We've had four accidents in our ten years of existence. One of those was fatal (due to an undisclosed pre-existing heart condition). To my mind, though, that's four too many and going forward I plan on doing my level best to ensure we never see another accident in our ranks again.

Bill Powers
www.powerscuba.org

Kudos to Mr. Powers. It's nice to see a dive shop taking the lead on diving safety.

I would respectfully disagree with his characterization of decompression illness and submit that there is such a thing as an unanticipated/unexpected hit. We can certainly control some risk factors like being cold on decompression and working hard on the bottom, but the fact remains that no decompression algorithm is perfect, and the deeper and longer the dive, the less perfect they all become. A diver can do his/her level best to avoid decompression sickness and still get bent. The terminology has evolved from "deserved/undeserved" to "expected/unexpected" in part to help remove the stigma around DCS that still exists in the diving community.

I also disagree with his advice to add deep stops to recreational (i.e. non-technical) dives greater than 100 feet. Doing this indiscriminately can actually increase the risk of DCS by increasing nitrogen uptake.

That said, I don't want to detract from his overall message of remaining mindful of safety, which certainly bears repeating.

Best regards,
DDM

DDM, I mention "undeserved hit" in the sense that there was indeed SOME reason why a person got hit. They may never know it, but there was SOMEthing about them and their body that caused the hit. Too many divers, after they get a "surprise" hit, after following the computer religiously, cry a big stink about the fact they got hit and that they didn't do anything wrong. Meanwhile they didn't drink very much water that day, have a high body fat %, etc. There was a reason, is my point.

I don't say that pejoratively either. "Deserved" doesn't mean "The bastard had it coming to him". Only that there was indeed a reason they got bent and it was thus "deserved".

I mention Deep Stops only as a way to get people to slow down on their way up... which is, indeed, the reason the 3-minute safety stop at 15' was developed (by Carl Robbins if I'm not mistaken). A minute here and there on your way up will result in negligible additional nitrogen upload and I incorporate it into my best practices.

Thanks for your reply!

Bill

Power Scuba does, on occasion, remove members for violations ranging from unsafe diving practices to drug use to sexual harassment. At least one of those removals has chosen to speak up in this thread. I apologize for their distraction/slanted commentary/grinding of axes.

Bill Powers

 

[Colliam7]

I would respectfully disagree with his characterization of decompression illness and submit that there is such a thing as an unanticipated/unexpected hit. We can certainly control some risk factors like being cold on decompression and working hard on the bottom, but the fact remains that no decompression algorithm is perfect, and the deeper and longer the dive, the less perfect they all become. A diver can do his/her level best to avoid decompression sickness and still get bent. The terminology has evolved from "deserved/undeserved" to "expected/unexpected" in part to help remove the stigma around DCS that still exists in the diving community.

You raise an interesting issue. And, I agree that the terminology is evolving. 'Unanticipated / unexpected', instead of 'undeserved', makes sense.

My memory may be serving me poorly, but I think I recall Neil Pollock making almost exactly that same statement - 'There is no such thing as an undeserved hit' - during a DEMA presentation in 2015. His point, however, was that just because whatever software we may be using suggests we can do a particular dive, doesn't mean we can do it without consequence, or should do it for that matter. The comment was made in the context of a broader discussion of algorithms, and lack of validation, and was intended to encourage divers to not simply manipulate the parameters in their software to shorten their deco times.

 

[Duke Dive Medicine]

DDM, I mention "undeserved hit" in the sense that there was indeed SOME reason why a person got hit. They may never know it, but there was SOMEthing about them and their body that caused the hit. Too many divers, after they get a "surprise" hit, after following the computer religiously, cry a big stink about the fact they got hit and that they didn't do anything wrong. Meanwhile they didn't drink very much water that day, have a high body fat %, etc. There was a reason, is my point.

I don't say that pejoratively either. "Deserved" doesn't mean "The bastard had it coming to him". Only that there was indeed a reason they got bent and it was thus "deserved".

I mention Deep Stops only as a way to get people to slow down on their way up... which is, indeed, the reason the 3-minute safety stop at 15' was developed (by Carl Robbins if I'm not mistaken). A minute here and there on your way up will result in negligible additional nitrogen upload and I incorporate it into my best practices.

Thanks for your reply!

Bill

Bill, thanks for the dialogue. @Colliam7, this speaks to your question as well. In one sense, of course there's a reason for decompression sickness. Something in the decompression process goes awry, the inflammatory cascade gets activated and/or bubbles physically disrupt areas of the body, and symptoms are produced. Knowing Neal the way I do, I'm sure that's what he meant, along with the suggestion that just because our computer or deco software says we can perform a particular dive doesn't mean we should.

One issue continues to be misinformation about DCS; for example, the link between dehydration and DCS is weak at best, and the body fat percentage misconception was disproved a while back. The risk factors that are backed by research are heavy work on the bottom, cold on decompression, and increased depth and bottom time.

I appreciate you clarifying the deep stops position, and I agree that controlling the ascent rate is critical. My position remains the same, that is, deep stops are not always beneficial and in some cases are detrimental. There is no basis in science for doing them all the time; in fact, the science advises against it. A safety stop at 15 feet is a completely different animal. The minute here and there that you mention may be the factor that tips the scale in favor of decompression sickness.

Best regards,
DDM

 

[Power Scuba]

I appreciate you clarifying the deep stops position, and I agree that controlling the ascent rate is critical. My position remains the same, that is, deep stops are not always beneficial and in some cases are detrimental. There is no basis in science for doing them all the time; in fact, the science advises against it. A safety stop at 15 feet is a completely different animal. The minute here and there that you mention may be the factor that tips the scale in favor of decompression sickness.

Best regards,
DDM

DDM, I'm afraid I don't agree with your stated position (quoted above) at all, but I too appreciate the dialog. Mayhap send me a private IM with your real name and position at Duke and we could continue the conversation. I find that doing anything other than stating your original position in these threads leads to a breakdown in civility and hangers-on injecting mean-spiritedness into the equation.

One last thought: If a minute here and there, as you suggest, is the deciding factor in whether you get bent or not, I would suggest you're either butting yourself WAY up to the NDL far too often or have your computer set in Liberal mode. Both things to be avoided.

Respectfully,

Bill Powers

 

[Wookie]

DDM, I'm afraid I don't agree with your stated position (quoted above) at all, but I too appreciate the dialog. Mayhap send me a private IM with your real name and position at Duke and we could continue the conversation. I find that doing anything other than stating your original position in these threads leads to a breakdown in civility and hangers-on injecting mean-spiritedness into the equation.

Respectfully,

Bill Powers

Here are some noted experts in the field, Including our own Simon Mitchell as well as other known names in a discussion of Deep Stops. I have been blessed to participate in Deep Stop studies with Duke University and Dr. Neal Pollock on the Spree. Seeing the data collected with my own eyes has made me a believer in discounting deep stops. But I'm happy for you to continue to do them, it is a free country and all that. Folks should be able to chart their own course. If it's over rocks, I'll tell you, but I won't stop you.

Alert Diver | Deep Stops

 

[boulderjohn]

DDM, I'm afraid I don't agree with your stated position (quoted above) at all, but I too appreciate the dialog. Mayhap send me a private IM with your real name and position at Duke and we could continue the conversation. I find that doing anything other than stating your original position in these threads leads to a breakdown in civility and hangers-on injecting mean-spiritedness into the equation.

Interesting comment.

We have had a number of threads on ScubaBoard recently related to the research on deep stops. Those discussions have been quite extensive, and they have included some of the foremost authorities on decompression science in the world, people like Dr. Simon Mitchell and Dr. David Doolette. Duke Dive Medicine's comments are completely in line with the clear consensus of the threads and the cited research.

You went on the world's largest public forum for scuba discussions and made a strong statement in your role as the leader of an organization, a statement that runs counter to current research. You have to expect that when you do so, people will respond when they disagree. If you have thousands of people in your organization, I would assume you would want them to have access to the latest thinking on a subject as important as this.

 

[Power Scuba]

I have been blessed to participate in Deep Stop studies with Duke University and Dr. Neal Pollock on the Spree. Seeing the data collected with my own eyes has made me a believer in discounting deep stops.

Alert Diver | Deep Stops

Frank, thanks for your reply. Are you sure we're both using "deep stops" in the same context? "Deep stops" is most usually used within the context of deco diving. And yet that is not the context I was using the term in. I'm merely stating I use them (and suggest them to my group) as a means to refrain from rapid ascents from recreational depths. "A minute here and there". If that's too confusing I will stop using the phrase, no worries.

And John: I didn't "go onto" this board. My article was posted here by a member who's simply trying to help (after I gave permission to all members to share the article as they will). And if your largest take-away from the entire article is my position on recreational "deep stops" then I really have nothing further to say to you. Be well.

Bill Powers

 

[yle]

I mention Deep Stops only as a way to get people to slow down on their way up...

I appreciate you clarifying the deep stops position, and I agree that controlling the ascent rate is critical. My position remains the same, that is, deep stops are not always beneficial and in some cases are detrimental. There is no basis in science for doing them all the time; in fact, the science advises against it.

You went on the world's largest public forum for scuba discussions and made a strong statement in your role as the leader of an organization, a statement that runs counter to current research.

It seems that Bill mentioned advocating deep stops as a way to increase a diver's awareness of their ascent rate. DDM replied that controlling ascent rate is important. And now the conversation somehow has twisted into Bill posting a statement that runs counter to current research.

Hmmmm...

I just recently read through this entire thread. It started with undeserved Power Scuba bashing, which seems to have laid the foundation for most of the later responses.