San Diego Dive Fatality 9-29-09

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...The question is not why is there nothing to learn. The question is: Why aren't these lessons taking hold in people's brains? Why are the same mistakes (generally) made over and over again?

Complacency.

Because diving for the most part is really pretty easy. As we are cruising along, looking at the marine life and just having a good time, we forget just how fast things can go haywire. If we get bored during the safety stop we may even practice a few basic skills but for the most part, our minds are not focused on the dangers.

Complacency is both the father and mother of tragedy.
 
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I think the answer to the out of air thing is if you continue to run out of air you shouldn't be diving. If everyone who runs out of air every now and then quit diving then there would be almost no diving deaths that didn't involve health issues.

This shouldn't be a large number of people either that need to quit.

How many here have ever run out of air?
 
b. According to Tobin, if I just release the belly strap on the BP/W along with the weight belt, the crotch strap will slide off the belly strap and the weight belt will drop. (I'll have to test this to see if it actually happens.)

It won't. Trust me on that one. I've been diving Tobin's BP/W setup for over a year now and absolutely love it. But freeing the crotch strap from the belly strap takes some considerable fumbling. Always. The reason is that the crotch strap's loop gets hung up on the waist belt buckle of the harness.
 
If this is like every other scuba accident there is nothing to learn from it. If it's health related there is nothing to be learned. If it is due to running out of air and panicking there is nothing to be learned other than the obvious.

Scuba is the only sport I've been involved in where there is almost never anything to be learned from an accident (and that's not a good thing).

Sorry I can't follow. Why do you think that? I came away from reading "Diver Down", the book about real-world accidents, as THE SINGLE MOST USEFUL piece of dive literature I've ever read.
 
It won't. Trust me on that one. I've been diving Tobin's BP/W setup for over a year now and absolutely love it. But freeing the crotch strap from the belly strap takes some considerable fumbling. Always. The reason is that the crotch strap's loop gets hung up on the waist belt buckle of the harness.

Not if you pass the tongue of the belt through the loop rather than the buckle.
 
It would also cease to be an issue if instructors would stop overweighting students in the first place and instruct them that they do not need to have all of their weight ditchable. For someone properly weighted dropping 2-4 lbs is more than sufficient to get positive and stay that way. When you have students wearing 20-30 lbs in a pool and they are not carrying alot of excess "natural buoyancy" that is just pure laziness on the part of the instructor. Teaching proper weighting from day one will also eliminate many issues. If a student does not know how much weight they need and where to put it by the time they get to OW for their checkouts the instructor has failed to adequately address the subject or the student was not paying attention. In either case they are not ready to be certified.

I'm not sure if it's laziness or stupidity.

I have never seen students with that much weight in the pool, but I know it happens.

I was diving with an operator in St. Maarten once, and I noticed that one of their instructors, who was supposedly doing some kind of AOW dive with a female student (not PPB), had turned it into a buoyancy dive instead. I later asked the instructor what was going on, and she told me that the student had so little buoyancy skill that it was useless to work on anything else. She told me the woman had requested a huge amount of weight at the beginning of the dive and had to be talked down to something reasonable.

By an incredible coincidence, I sat next to that woman on the flight home. She told me she had been recently certified by a large and well known chain of shops in Southern California. (No, I don't remember the name, so I can't tell you.) They put 20 pounds on her 100 pound body for the pool, and all other students were weighted about the same. I told her I could not believe they could do the required buoyancy skills, like fin pivot and hover, with that much weight. She told me that no one in the class was able to do them, but they all passed anyway.

Overweighting a student to that degree does not serve the purpose of laziness, for it is much, much, much easier to teach students how to dive when they are properly weighted.

Similarly, several people in this thread noted that he was wearing a 3 mm suit and might have been weighted for a 7mm suit without realizing the difference. Maybe, but maybe not. I have seen people overweighted to that degree in 3 mm suits in warm water as well. I have seen many cases in warm water resort diving in which a new diver asks for advice on weighting and is told by the DM to use 10% of his body weight, which is generally much too much in a 3 mm suit. I have seen posters on Scuba Board give that advice and more. I even saw one poster recommend 20% of the body weight for a diver in a 3 mm suit!

On a dive in Bonaire, I was taking my gear apart on the boat when a young woman came on barely able to walk with all the weight she was carrying. Every diver in our area immediately offered to help, and we talked her into trying less than half the weight she had on the next dive. She was fine, and we got her to use even less on the next dive.
 
Sorry I can't follow. Why do you think that? I came away from reading "Diver Down", the book about real-world accidents, as THE SINGLE MOST USEFUL piece of dive literature I've ever read.

I can see how such a book may be useful as there are similar books in other activities. If you have all of the scuba deaths to pick from I'm sure you can come up with some useful examples.

Most of the real life examples in my area and from the accidents on this board (recreational deaths that is) are more basic in my opinion.

Look at the examples in your local area and see if you can find many that aren't health related where it's anything other than gross negligence.

Around here we had a newer diver who had anxiety/panic problems while diving and decided do a solo dive to help over come these problems and drowned.

We had a newer diver who decided to go on a night (cold water) dive with an 80 cu ft tank to 200 fsw and ran out of air.

Another diver who knew her skills weren't that great went on a dive that was a bit beyond her skill level and ran out of air, went to her buddies octo for part of the ascent and then refused it for the last part and held her breath. She had a lung over expansion injury and died on the spot.

Sure, I can come up with one local fatality where there was something to learn but for the most part what there is to learn you already know.

Again, how many participating in this thread have ever run out of air? I would hope no one.

I'm not saying these threads aren't useful. I think most scuba divers want to continue to be aware of how many people are dying and what the causes were. I just don't think there is a lot of prevention going on in these cases by reading of the accidents.

If the causes weren't so basic then there would be more to learn from. There are always side issues and many may in fact find things to learn from those.

People not used to kelp may learn something from this case but not running out of air and taking off your BC while overweighted is not something most people need to learn, even a new diver generally doesn't need to learn this.

A new diver with good judgment can be as safe as any other diver and often is.
 
Look at the examples in your local area and see if you can find many that aren't health related where it's anything other than gross negligence.

I don't want this to sound like I'm picking on you (because I'm not trying to) but . . .

I think what you meant to say was "gross stupidity" or something like that.

"Gross negligence" is a legal term that's essentially used when you're blaming someone else for whatever happened to the victim. (I do expert witness work so I may be overly sensitive to this.)

So the cases that we generally discuss here (see the national numbers/trends I've detailed in the Catalina death thread) involve a preponderence of diver error, not negligence on someone else's part that caused the person to die.

- Ken
 
By an incredible coincidence, I sat next to that woman on the flight home. She told me she had been recently certified by a large and well known chain of shops in Southern California. (No, I don't remember the name, so I can't tell you.)

Would the name of the business rhyme with "Motion Enterprises?"
 
Would the name of the business rhyme with "Motion Enterprises?"

As I said, I honestly have no idea. My mind is interesting in that it sometimes remembers ridiculously obscure things, and at other times things trickle through like water through a sieve.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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