Save me from myself (Too "safe"?)

[jzipfel]

I seem to have found myself in a spiral of thoughts regarding how much do I need to be safe. This might be long so buckle up.

As some background, I teach people safety as a profession. Mostly chemical spill response and the use of Fully encapsulating suits. There is a lot is crossover between safety when dealing with a HAZMAT suit and SCUBA. However, in my personal life, the older I get, the more risks I seem to be willing to take. I ski faster, steeper etc. I mountain bike faster and more technical than I did when I was in my 30's.

However, my 13 (now 14) year old son and I got certified last year and we have about 24 dives in. Dry suit certified, Nitrox too. There is absolutely nothing like diving with your son and knowing that you are so reliant on him making good decisions for his own safety and mine, and vise versa. I trust him unconditionally.

I find my dad instincts take over when diving with him and always wonder if we are "safe enough" (sorry for the quotes but trying to imply everyone is going to have their own definition). The exact opposite of how I enjoy my other hobbies.

What I think we are doing correct
We dive as buddies. That means we stay within arms reach. We always check on each other. We practice air share, helping, buoyancy on almost every dive. In fact in a couple weeks, I have hired our instructor to come back out with us to do a day of dives and more practice of these and more techniques. I firmly believe that the more we practice these skills the better off we will be if anything arises underwater. I would find it hard to believe if anyone here will disagree with that statement.

Where I am having problems
The more I dive and the more time I spend on SB, the more questions I have regarding safety equipment. I don't like to carry a lot of Sh!t that will just hang off me or look like a Scuba Christmas tree. But there is a reason for each piece of ADDITIONAL safety equipment. Most, if not all of our diving for the next few years will be in groups and probably 50% of those dives will be vacation dives with guides. So, could you all help me determine the benefits/drawbacks of carry any/all of the following. Which do you determine to be necessary vs. nice to have.

SMB - I see this as helpful if I get separated from the boat and just need to wait out for them to come get us.
Slate - I would love to have more than a hand conversation, but how often are they used for safety
Spare mask/snorkel -I always thought this was too much, but I almost had my mask kicked off three time on one dive by someone who was just getting certified, very nervous underwater, had no idea I was under him.
Spare Air/Pony - We are very diligent about watching each others air consumption and feel free to call a dive at any time. Dives less than 100 feet. If you are a proponent of this, only one or each with their own?
Spare light - We each carry a 750 lm light, no caves but some lava tubes when the opportunity presents itself. We can always see the entry/exit.

What am I missing. Thanks for any help/guidance/suggestions.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I dive with my teenage son too.. No slate, ever.. I just yell or give signals.
Spare mask: never needed a spare (while diving) in 40 years (I've had a mask dislodged many times, but never lost it).
Snorkel: we always take them.
SMB, generally have at least one each.
Pony bottle, we each have one on just about every dive unless it is very shallow and there is very low risk of dangerous boat traffic that could delay our ascent.
Dive light: We generally each have one on all dives, for night dives we will have two each. If you ever get lost at sea (in the day) and they send a helicopter up for you, a flashlight could become very, very important on that first night in the water.

I want my son to survive MY heart attack at depth. I try to make sure he has all the skills and gear to safely arrive at the surface alone.

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

What am I missing. Thanks for any help/guidance/suggestions.

^^^ What Dumpster said - and if you have a choice between reading Scubaboard or diving - Dive More...
Don't over analyze too much.

 

[tbone1004]

all of that, and where in the northwest are you? If you're close to Lynne and her husband Peter it would be worthwhile to start diving with them and their group of buddies. She is TSandM on the board
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SMB: I take one any time I'm in OW, they're cheap from Piranha, doesn't hurt to have them, I prefer closed models with OPV's built in

Slate: Not necessarily needed, but if you're going to have one, this is a video of how we teach our students to make their own. It includes a compass which is a safety tool for open water diving
[video=youtube;x0z4T_3KjFM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0z4T_3KjFM[/video]

Spare Mask/Snorkel: I don't carry a snorkel as I don't need them for my types of diving and think they're not particularly useful, I also don't carry a spare mask, it lives under my hood in cold water so it isn't going to get lost, and it takes a lot to break one, so not terribly worried. If you're good you can actually make a small air pocket with your hand around one eye to look at gauges if you have to without a mask, and you should be proficient at breathing without one so it is just a PITA if something happens. In the many thousands of hours I've had underwater, I've never seen a mask problem to warrant carrying a spare.

Spareair/pony: If you're going to carry one, carry a real one, so nothing smaller than an AL30 IMHO, doubles are better, especially for local diving, but if you're staying single tank, I would go to an H-valve if possible, and an AL30 mounted to your backgas, gives you lots of contingency planning there, though certainly not the cheap way out. If the H valve is deemed too hard to deal with due to travelling or renting tanks, then just get an AL30 with a mounting bracket that goes on via cam band, and you're good to go. Highly recommend, they're cheap and good insurance.

Spare light: Probably don't need one, the HOG Morph lights are pretty cheap and work very well, Piranha has their 220 lights on super sale right now, and if you're doing night diving, Piranha also has glo-tubes that work on AA batteries or AAA, can't remember, but they use normal batteries and those are useful as a second light if you need it.

I would recommend some line cutting device. I prefer the Bench Made 7, but the trilobites are pretty nice and can be strapped just about anywhere, and cut just about anything.

Other than that, just keep diving, if you're doing boat diving or high current I might suggest a Jon-line, but it's definitely not required, and won't add that much to the safety factor.

 

[hedgehog47]

Excellent ideas on your part I feel. I noticed you didn't mention a dive knife. I use this one clipped to a D ring (use zip ties)
it's very light and I coated it with vasoline and it hasn't rusted. Amazon has a pack of three for $13 somewhere I think.


http://www.amazon.com/Bud-K-17-BK43...TF8&qid=1415396384&sr=1-2&keywords=neck+knife

 

[TMHeimer]

For me:
--knife.
--foldable snorkel in pocket (haven't used it yet).
--pony bottle: for boat dives depending on how good instabuddy is.
--slate: So far only used for listing names of pumpkins found. Usually don't take it.
--light: If I think I'll need it in 1 foot viz to see bottom & collect shells. Otherwise no.
--SMB: Always take it if any real current around (DiveAlert as well), and on all boat dives. Otherwise no.
--standard plastic whistle.
--spare mask: Keep it on shore/boat. Never lost a mask. Buddy should be able to help if close enough to help. At least twice I've used the spare when my mask strap broke. Easier than putting a new strap on while geared up.

I particularly like your buddy philosophy. The skills buddies do together are obviously useless if you're not close and don't continually watch each other. I also applaud you for practising the skills regularly.

 

[Damselfish]

I think it's easy enough to carry basic safety gear without turning yourself into a Christmas tree.

SMB is a good thing to have, more so if you are diving someplace that tends to have currents. I keep a small one clipped to my BC, and have a bigger one I will take if I'm someplace I feel it's more important.
Slate - I don't really think of this as a safety thing, though I suppose it could be in some circumstances. But I keep a small one in a pocket and use it often enough when something just can't be communicated by hand signals, I think it can make a dive more enjoyable.
Rare I've carried a spare mask on a dive. I used to take a spare on trips in case I needed one but don't bother anymore. I've had it dislodged but never lost completely. Situational awareness is good for many things, and one of them is keeping klutzes from knocking off your mask.
Snorkel is more likely to be useful in some circumstances than others, only you know. I keep a rollup in my pocket. Don't think I've ever used it on a dive but someday I may be happy to have it on me.
As long as you're with a trusted buddy I don't think a pony is necessary. If I were picking up instabuddies so effectively solo I might feel differently.
A light has safety uses, but is also just plain useful even in the daytime. I carry a narrow beam one all the time in my pocket, and it's a backup for my wider beam light at night. (I dive clear water, obviously different conditions call for different lights. (And I've had both lights fail on the same night dive. At least it was a full moon.)

In a pocket I also carry a signal mirror and a small strobe. And don't forget cutting devices.

 

[Akimbo]

Statistically, your greatest risk is getting panicked and killing yourself and/or others, while lethal equipment failures are pretty rare. Rather than adding more crap that is itself a burden, work on your skills.

For example, losing a mask won’t kill you. Reacting badly to the loss might very well. Preventing the loss of a mask is worth thinking about since it can ruin a dive: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ad...ons/398734-preventing-mask-loss-vs-spare.html

Not having a light at all won’t kill you on daylight dives and isn’t likely on night dives. So why do you “require” a spare? People have been diving for more than 50 years before SMBs were available. I’m not suggesting they are a bad idea but they are pretty low on the list of important things that will keep you alive — especially when you are shore diving in benign locations.

So what’s really important? Being a confident swimmer is number one. Knowing you can handle yourself in the water is the best way to stay alive. Number two is probably being confident that you can get to the surface unassisted. Even if you are committed to decompression, getting bent is far more treatable than drowning. To do this you MUST know enough not to embolize yourself since that is about as fast a way to die as drowning.

All things being equal, a skilled freediver is a safer Scuba diver than someone who is not. Why? Because you know you can hold your breath a lot longer than most people “think” they can and are more likely to die trying to get to breathable air than to just sit on the bottom in a panicked blob. Freedivers are also, on average, significantly more comfortable and confident in the water.

Redundant gas is probably worth considering as long as the physical burden does not compromise safety. An independent gas source is there no matter how stupid, distracted, or flummoxed you get. Just being there can help overt potential panic. You want to practice with it so it is truly reflexive or you may as well leave it on the beach though. Just don’t be this guy.

 

[jzipfel]

I forgot to add the cutting device. Knife, ER scissors or Trilobite. I'm leaning towards the trilobite. Small, useful, can be tucked away but still accessible.


Tbone

Spareair/pony: If you're going to carry one, carry a real one, so nothing smaller than an AL30 IMHO, doubles are better, especially for local diving, but if you're staying single tank, I would go to an H-valve if possible, and an AL30 mounted to your backgas, gives you lots of contingency planning there, though certainly not the cheap way out. If the H valve is deemed too hard to deal with due to travelling or renting tanks, then just get an AL30 with a mounting bracket that goes on via cam band, and you're good to go. Highly recommend, they're cheap and good insurance.

Any links? I see only singles for a while and would like to travel with it too, which means I have to be able to remove the valve and get pressure to zero.

Thanks everyone. FWIW, we are diving Sunday, so we are trying to get out as much as possible.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

all of that, and where in the northwest are you? If you're close to Lynne and her husband Peter it would be worthwhile to start diving with them and their group of buddies. She is TSandM on the board
| Just another WordPress weblog
blog there

SMB: I take one any time I'm in OW, they're cheap from Piranha, doesn't hurt to have them, I prefer closed models with OPV's built in

Slate: Not necessarily needed, but if you're going to have one, this is a video of how we teach our students to make their own. It includes a compass which is a safety tool for open water diving
[video=youtube;x0z4T_3KjFM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0z4T_3KjFM[/video]

Spare Mask/Snorkel: I don't carry a snorkel as I don't need them for my types of diving and think they're not particularly useful, I also don't carry a spare mask, it lives under my hood in cold water so it isn't going to get lost, and it takes a lot to break one, so not terribly worried. If you're good you can actually make a small air pocket with your hand around one eye to look at gauges if you have to without a mask, and you should be proficient at breathing without one so it is just a PITA if something happens. In the many thousands of hours I've had underwater, I've never seen a mask problem to warrant carrying a spare.

Spareair/pony: If you're going to carry one, carry a real one, so nothing smaller than an AL30 IMHO, doubles are better, especially for local diving, but if you're staying single tank, I would go to an H-valve if possible, and an AL30 mounted to your backgas, gives you lots of contingency planning there, though certainly not the cheap way out. If the H valve is deemed too hard to deal with due to travelling or renting tanks, then just get an AL30 with a mounting bracket that goes on via cam band, and you're good to go. Highly recommend, they're cheap and good insurance.

Spare light: Probably don't need one, the HOG Morph lights are pretty cheap and work very well, Piranha has their 220 lights on super sale right now, and if you're doing night diving, Piranha also has glo-tubes that work on AA batteries or AAA, can't remember, but they use normal batteries and those are useful as a second light if you need it.

I would recommend some line cutting device. I prefer the Bench Made 7, but the trilobites are pretty nice and can be strapped just about anywhere, and cut just about anything.

Other than that, just keep diving, if you're doing boat diving or high current I might suggest a Jon-line, but it's definitely not required, and won't add that much to the safety factor.

With respect to the bolded comments.. teling the dad to configure his 14 yr old son with doubles or a minimum size pony bottle of 30 cu-ft is NOT something I think is reasonable for most 14 yr olds. At 14 my son was probably 115 lbs and skinny.

I was very comfortable with him diving with a 6 cu-ft pony bottle to 80 feet or so. Requiring an excessively big spare bottle for a young kid will present a major burden for the child and will do little to enhance safety, especially if the father son practice tight buddy diving skills.

I looked back at my diving videos.. This one shows my son diving with me when he was 14 yrs old. He is using a 6 cu-ft bottle, no trouble, no balance issues and it makes us both feel a lot safer. An H-valve won't work for a vacationing diver using rental tanks and a 30 cu-ft is too big to fly with on trips anyway.

He is 16 now and I generally encourage him to use a 13 cu-ft, especially if the depth is past 80 feet.

Picking the right bottle, goes DIRECTLY to the issue of "too safe". I've been through this exercise myself, if I am spearfishing, there are times when I can NOT give my son 100% of my attention, so he MUST have redundancy.

[video=youtube_share;F-gNgQ5udjo]http://youtu.be/F-gNgQ5udjo?list=UU1utDku8vJRJYgBZImLyLJQ[/video]