I have never heard anyone say that no GUE trained diver has died. I have, however heard the WKPP safety record has been spotless since GI3 has implemented current methods. I too have heard of WKPP divers being bent but they have done some "new" things with deco and you have to work the bugs out someow. I don't know that I have ever heard them claim that none of them have never been bent.
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MHK
Guest
Mike,
That is a pretty accurate description. George took over the WKPP when Parker Turner was killed after part of the cave collapsed and he was trapped on the wrong side of the cave in. Since George has taken over there have been no fatalities. However as you would suspect doing dives that involve 18 or 20 hours of in water exposure and the average bottom depths of around 300' and 18,000' of penetration there have been some decompression sickness incidents. Given that the US Navy, DAN and many other organizations come to the WKPP to see how they are able to push and change existing theories it's natural that at some point someone will get bent. All the appropriate safety protocols are in place to plan for these events, the support diver's are required to attend annual safety weekends [ in fact this years seminar is in two weeks], the gas diver's and bottom diver's have all worked their way up through a mentoring system so no one is able to advance until they have mastered support diving.. In the type of diving that is being done at the WKPP exploration it is natural that at some point someone will get bent, the important thing is to learn from the event, but some only want to tarnish the hard work and accomplishments and more importantly the advances in decompression strategies that are learned through first hand experiences at the WKPP..
Hope that clears it up..
Later
King Kong Matt
Contributor
While we have your ear...
Can you comment on the veracity of this statement, to the best of your knowledge?
I'm not sure how Genesis would quantify "several" (more than 5?), or whether he is referring to the WKPP pre-George or simply the WKPP under George's tenure.
Either way, I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on this. Personally, it sounds like crap.
Can you comment on the veracity of this statement, to the best of your knowledge?
I'm not sure how Genesis would quantify "several" (more than 5?), or whether he is referring to the WKPP pre-George or simply the WKPP under George's tenure.
Either way, I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on this. Personally, it sounds like crap.
boomx5
Contributor
have you gone to the Quest list or emailed George to get any of your concerns answered?
MHK
Guest
Matt,
While I'm a member of the WKPP I think it's only fair to disclose that I don't get to the team events as often as I would like. Between the fact that I live in Los Angeles and I travel often there simply isn't enough available weekends. However that being said, as far as I know since George has taken over I can state factually there have been no fatalitiies, prior to him taking over the only death I'm aware of is Parker Turner and even that was well before my time. I just left a message for George to confirm how many, if any, were before his time as director. As soon as he calls me back I'll get the scoop and advise.
Later
King Kong Matt
Contributor
Thanks for the quick response.
In terms of publicly accessible knowledge, I am not aware of any fatalities other than Parker Turner, as you mentioned.
On a lighter note, if Genesis is wrong and there are no other fatalities of WKPP divers while doing WKPP dives, then I think we can look forward to a spirited response from George...in other words, I sense a "farm animal stupid" or a "beyond the pale" around the corner
Thanks MHK. Your help is always invaluable.
Matt
MHK
Guest
King Kong Matt once bubbled...
Thanks for the quick response.
In terms of publicly accessible knowledge, I am not aware of any fatalities other than Parker Turner, as you mentioned.
On a lighter note, if Genesis is wrong and there are no other fatalities of WKPP divers while doing WKPP dives, then I think we can look forward to a spirited response from George...in other words, I sense a "farm animal stupid" or a "beyond the pale" around the corner
Thanks MHK. Your help is always invaluable.
Matt
I just hung up with George and here it is straight from his mouth. There have been 3 fatalities in the 18 years that the WKPP has existed. Bill Mc Fadden, Parker Turner and Sherwood Sheely. George has taken over the WKPP in 1992 and since he has taken over the project there have been no fatalitites.. As a side note there have been members of the WKPP team that have died while diving, but they were not doing WKPP dives at the time they died..
When you put into context the number of cave dives that have been done in 18 years, and the groundbreaking, world record setting dives that they have accomplished over the years it is quit amazing that there haven't been more, but those are the facts..
Hope that helps..
Later
King Kong Matt
Contributor
That's just awesome...hey, everyone can say what they want, but the facts are the facts and those guys have done some downright outrageous things with a remarkable safety record.
Good for them.
Good for them.
Of course there are those who would say that this just proves that without Herr George you can't dive "truly DIR".
Never mind that GUE-trained divers, which is what this was about in the first place (and GUE's safety record) is nowhere near "spotless". The issue is NOT whether someone has died when you have an ENORMOUS support structure in place for everything you do - of course that radically cuts the risks.
It also is unrealistic to expect that ordinary humans will have that kind of level of support available when THEY dive.
As for the Quest list, I'm not paying to be on his private bash-fest list of everything not approved by him. Free discussion? You're kidding, right?
We can get that right here.
Rice
Guest
What I heard (at extreme exposure and others) was that there have been "no fatalities". I suppose it would have been far more accurate to say "no WKPP fatalities" but the conversation was about taking a DIR-F class.
It's entirely possible that there was a misunderstanding and when some people mean "they" the reference is towards the WKPP.
My newbiefied mind still makes a distinction between GUE and WKPP, is there one?
This kind of hair splitting thing is annowing however because it's repeated quite alot around here apparentley. Hell, I'd figure the kinds of people attracted to GUE and the kinds of things they do that there WOULD be PLENTY of hits and some deaths. that wouldn't have fazed me.
I guess it's the kind of thing that gets passed around about a group that seperates themselves from the mainstream.
Sheck Exley was brought up earlier by genesis of a DIR Diver that died. I'm not aware of any afileation between him and GUE.
Actually, Sheck was diving caves before Jarrod or most of the other GUE guys even learned to dive. (I AM NOT BASHING ANYONE, STATING FACTS HERE)
Another thing,
on page 94 of "Doing it Right", "the bottom line here, however, is that divers should be certian that, without any air intheier bouyancy compensators, they are capable of swimming against teh weight of their configuration with full tanks and all weight in place. This would allow them to verify that they are able to manage thier SCUBA configuration in the event of a buoyancy failure."
Love to se it so lively in here,
Rice
It's entirely possible that there was a misunderstanding and when some people mean "they" the reference is towards the WKPP.
My newbiefied mind still makes a distinction between GUE and WKPP, is there one?
This kind of hair splitting thing is annowing however because it's repeated quite alot around here apparentley. Hell, I'd figure the kinds of people attracted to GUE and the kinds of things they do that there WOULD be PLENTY of hits and some deaths. that wouldn't have fazed me.
I guess it's the kind of thing that gets passed around about a group that seperates themselves from the mainstream.
Sheck Exley was brought up earlier by genesis of a DIR Diver that died. I'm not aware of any afileation between him and GUE.
Actually, Sheck was diving caves before Jarrod or most of the other GUE guys even learned to dive. (I AM NOT BASHING ANYONE, STATING FACTS HERE)
Another thing,
on page 94 of "Doing it Right", "the bottom line here, however, is that divers should be certian that, without any air intheier bouyancy compensators, they are capable of swimming against teh weight of their configuration with full tanks and all weight in place. This would allow them to verify that they are able to manage thier SCUBA configuration in the event of a buoyancy failure."
Love to se it so lively in here,
Rice
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