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I didn't say that Sheck was a DIR-diver. He wasn't. Clearly. If you read anything about him, that much is instantly obvious.

The point I've made all along is that GUE does NOT have anything close to an accident-free or death-free record in terms of the divers carrying their cards. However, if you're known to be a GUE-card-carrying diver and die while underwater, its a good bet that GI3 will call you names posthumously. For that matter he'll do so whether you have one of GUE's cards or not.

WKPP has a death-free record in the last few years. HOWEVER, WKPP does not have a death free record in total, and I don't believe GI3 is in charge any more anyway.

Nor does WKPP have an incident-free record - not even close.

GUE divers die just like every other kind of diver.

Most of the time divers die due to one of two reasons:

1. They do something stupid, or a combination of things that are stupid, underwater.

OR

2. They have some kind of medical emergency underwater from which nobody would be reasonably expected to survive. In many cases there is no prior warning and no REASONABLE way (that is, without expensive, invasive - and dangerous - tests) to know that they were at risk), but in some they are diving explicitly against medical advice.

Those two things account for virtually ALL diver deaths, irrespective of the agency involved.

MOST divers who die do so while explicitly violating some part of their training either explicitly or implicitly. Most cave divers die because they aren't cave-certified and lack the training and proper equipment to be in an overhead environment. That accounts for something like NINETY PERCENT of cave fatalities.

GUE, like all other agencies, plays "hush hush" when someone who they certified screws up and buys it. They are no better (and no worse) than IANTD, TDI, PADI, SSI or any other agency in this regard.

To the best of my knowledge NO agency takes "credit" for and is forthcoming with infomration about their graduates' "own goals", and I've yet to see any PUBLIC data from DAN identifying the agency (or agencies) who issued the card(s) that a particular victim held prior to his or her demise.
 
Genesis once bubbled...

HOWEVER, WKPP does not have a death free record in total, and I don't believe GI3 is in charge any more anyway.

Who do you think is running the WKPP? If you don't think it's George, you really do need to get a subscription to Quest.
 
their superiority.

And George certainly qualifies.

The published scuttlebutt is that he is no longer the director and that someone else is in charge. If that's wrong and its just misdirection, that's ok. Who cares, really?

The point isn't the WKPP anyway. Its the claim (or idea, if you prefer) that GUE's training programs lead to divers who arne't involved in fatal accidents.

That simply isn't true. and as I've pointed out, making claims that a well-funded, well-supported, scheduled and scripted exploration program's record has ANY relationship to any form of sport diving is ludicrous.
 
You know I'm amazed, that the death totals are as small as they are. I was just reflecting on the fact that DIR training (Tech, Cave, Rebreather) all seems to focus on diving deep and in overhead environments, and longer, with deco - far beyond recreational limits.

It is therefore remarkable to me how small the death totals really are considering the environment and risk for DIR divers. And Genesis if what you say is true about the 95% bracket for scuba related deaths and their causes - it doesn't reflect negatively in any way on the number of deaths that occurred for DIR divers. IE ... if they had dove their training they may not have died at all - except when a cave collapses on them or they suffer a heart attack.

Amazing!
 
I can assure you that George is still firmly in charge of the WKPP.

WW
 
however, it DOES reflect negatively on the screaming that the DIR zealots do about OTHER agencies being "so dangerous".

The fact of the matter is that only about 100 people a year get Darwin Awards scuba diving. Given that there are something over 1,000,000 certified divers in the US, the RISK of dying is miniscule.

The real point is that diving just isn't done THAT poorly in terms of safety issues.

Despite what the GUE folks would like you to believe.
 
Know why?

Because DIR doesn't yet have an OW class. They require all the basics be done (and the certification) by one of those other dangerous agencies. Then they "undo" all of their "bad" training and make them good divers - at least that is the claim.

Honestly, I'm looking forward to one day taking the DIR OW course. I can't wait. I will only attend if they have a class filled with brand new divers - who haven't even done a resort discover scuba before.
 
I'm looking forward to the statistics on how many students fail the class and even more importantly, how many of the failures repeat the class as paying customers and eventually get the certification. Can't wait.
 
I agree with you. I know Genesis will disagree, but first off, I have never heard claims of perfection...that they were doing it better and with fewer accidents than the other guys...yeah.

Second, taking what the WKPP does and labelling it "sport diving", while it might be technically accurate is, in my opinion misleading. Don't compare their safety record to the average guy doing 45 mins at 50 feet on a reef with 100 ft visibility and no current. Take their record and compare it to the safety record of guys like the North Atlantic wreck divers...the "Star Wars Bar Scene" to quote the guy pouring the Kool-Aid (might as well use the vernacular of the thread).
 
I agree with you. I know Genesis will disagree, but first off, I have never heard claims of perfection...that they were doing it better and with fewer accidents than the other guys...yeah.

But that's not documented as being true. WKPP is not in any way a reflection of what GUE turns out. WKPP is a HIGHLY specialized, monitored, protocol-driven, FINANCED and controlled environment.

You would NEVER consent to that for your recreational diving - whether it was deco or "45 minutes at 50'". NEVER. Neither would or does just about anyone else!

It is a gross misrepresentation of reality to cast WKPP as "demonstrative" of DIR or GUE. Its NOT. It is a special case under special circumstances.

Second, taking what the WKPP does and labelling it "sport diving", while it might be technically accurate is, in my opinion misleading. Don't compare their safety record to the average guy doing 45 mins at 50 feet on a reef with 100 ft visibility and no current. Take their record and compare it to the safety record of guys like the North Atlantic wreck divers...the "Star Wars Bar Scene" to quote the guy pouring the Kool-Aid (might as well use the vernacular of the thread).

Why not just release the credentials of all those who cap themselves (who certified them and for what) so we can figure it out statistically?

GUE certainly doesn't do it. (Neither do the other agencies!)

But someone - DAN perhaps - ought to. Why? Because I've seen ZERO real evidence that GUE's "way" produces a better accident statistic. You can't count WKPP, unless you're comparing it against similarly-funded and controlled scientific expeditions (then it might be fair, provided the level of funding and control is similar.)

What I DO know is that GUE-trained divers DO cap themselves. Since they have a miniscule percentage of the total divers out there, tha they have shown up in the statistics is pretty remarkable, and not in a particularly complementary way.
 
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