Service cost comparison

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Sherwood may deserve a better reputation for innovation than they get.

Both now and in the past. During the beginnings of the SCUBA industry Sherwood Manufacturing, being the premier high pressure gas fittings manufacturer, produced parts and entire regs for the various SCUBA reg companies in the US, as offshore manufacturing does now. In 1958, engineers from Sherwood Manufacturing modified the piston regulator for underwater service. Several other manufacturers adopted the piston design over the other widely used diaphragm design. I believe Sherwood started producing their own regs in the 70's and got a reputation for reliability. Which I can attest to since acquiring my first Sherwood in 1980, which is still in service on my pony bottle.


Bob
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Please describe “terrible shape”
Rusty components. Filter is entirely green or discolored. Salt water corrosion stripping the chrome and exposing brass. Components such as yoke retainers, bodies, end caps, port plugs being siezed up and crusty requiring excessive torque to remove.
Anything that still looks like an ancient shipwreck after 20 minutes in the sonic cleaner is terrible or filthy imo. A great external indicator is the filter though. If its completely discolored, the internals probably arent much better.
I think this is also a testament to how robust most modern regulators are. They still work fine even when the internals are in a state that a tech might describe as "terrible".
Haha also true. One of the guys who
Please describe “terrible shape”

Shurite7 said it best i think. The big thing is build up of minerals and corrosion. I should not have to vice and put my full body weight behind a torque wrench to get your reg apart. Not only can this damage the integrity of the body/components, but the most noticeable consequence is the stripping away of the chrome plating which is the protective layer of most brass regulators. Once that brass is exposed, a diver has to be extra diligent and thorough about rinsing post dive because that exposed brass is now much more susceptible to corrosion. and depending on what it is (pistons, crowns, seating orifices) you could have serious issues.
Another thing is rust. rust anywhere on your regulator is BAD. you do not want rust getting into your lungs. The thing about rust, is that for the most part, a diver can not prevent it no matter how diligent his post dive care (unless he does a full rebuild each time). This is because generally rust comes from a tank.
Another qualification for "terrible" shape in my opinion is when the second stage inlet tube and packing nut are seized up from mineral build up/corrosion. Most Second stages these days have a plastic body. Not all of them reinforce the slot that the actual "regulator" seats. So when the packing nut won't come off, or the inlet tube wont come loose of the body. There is no quick and effective way to get them apart. Brute strength will damage the body. So you have to get creative with boiling water, vinegar, partial sonic cleaner dip etc. which is a waste of time for a tech. There have been a few rare cases where I had to call the customer and tell them that I was not going to do their second stage because I didnt think I could get it apart without significant damage to the plastic body. If they want me to try anyway, I annotate it in there service record and do what I can.

Basically "terrible" is:
1) anything that make me think "How are you still alive using this thing?"
2) Pieces that are so seized up as to possibly damage integrity of the reg
3) takes any more than 25 minutes in the sonic cleaner and a light brush to look brand new.

The first set of pictures below is one of my former instructors, Its an Atomic ST1. It was really difficult to get apart, but when I finally did.... well see for yourself. You can see rust and the most solid build up of minerals on the LP ports. You can see that the hoses themselves have significant build up on the inside of the lines as well. His air was travelling through all these avenues. the reg had not been serviced in 7 YEARS, He brought it in because it started breathing hard at depth. While teaching a deep specialty class. Side note: This service is the reason that my GF and I both own 2 ENVIRONMENTALLY SEALED Atomic regulators I have ST1s, she has an ST1 and a T3. I am a believer in Atomic products after this, a great testament to their durability. The spring, piston, and sealing orifice where protected from rust and debris because of the sealant. In my experience, not many other regs that I have worked on would still be serviceable with that much rust and mineral build up. It took a long time in the sonic cleaner, a lot of scrubbing, and I actually ended up just replacing the port plugs because I was shredding my fingers trying to clean them with a wire brush. When it was all said and done all the components looked brand new and it tested to factory spec. See ya in another 7 years....

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Here is a Mares reg. This is the more common brass with chrome plating style body. Not to knock the reg itself. It is a great and reliable reg when properly cared for. But you can see that rust and debris are in the main body where all the sealing orifices are that deliver your air. You can also see that the chrome is stripping off the threads because of how seized up it was to the yoke retainer and how much force i needed to get it apart. I take pictures of almost all the reg services that I do just to cover myself. these are more recent ones without digging to far. This reg did clean up after again, A LOT OF WORK, TIME AND EXTRA EFFORT, but the brass is now exposed in most of the ports (which are most likely to be exposed to the elements) and the crown oriface whichj creates the HP seal in your first stage also has some exposed brass.
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An Atomic ST1 has a full stainless steel body. When environmentally sealed it's basically bulletproof and can be scrubed with harsher brushes and take more of a "cleaning beating" at the service bench. Brass with chrome plating can not do that. A tech has to use softer brushes so that the chrome isn't taken off.

Moral of the story. Service your regs. Especially if they're brass. It's only your life support =)
 
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When the regulator manufacturers switched from a one year to a two year service intervals what changed? Other than competition from Atomic.

As someone that has been on SB a long time I never heard anyone say don't service your regulator. What they say it to check your regulator before diving and if there is performance issues (freeflow, creep, etc.) then get it serviced. Also check the outside of the regulator for verdigris and damage, especially the filter. In addition to checking the hoses.

True most manufacturers switched to 2 year service intervals and a bench test during off years after Aqualung started it if I'm not mistaken. Nothing changed with the regs or kits themselves. It was just keeping up with the market. This much was admitted buy AUP.
 
This reg wasn't "terrible" per say. It was pretty crusty which you may or not be able to tell by the quality of the picture, but the threads have quite a bit of build up on them and there is some rust on some components. This guy is a pretty avid travelling diver and hasn't had this reg serviced in about 3 years. I know him to be pretty responsible with his post dive cleaning. But again, rust in the reg likely comes from a rusty tank or tanks that he rented on vaca. In this case it did enter the regulator system. You can also see the discoloration on the brass inlet filter. the bottom of the cone is almost completely black. The small shiny brass ring at the base is the closest to what the original color is supposed to be. It's protected because it sits on a lip betweent he yoke retainer and the body. But you can see the comparison to the rest of the filter. The inlet filter is primarily to filter out debris in the cylinder. Not necessarily the other way around because typically the air should only be travelling one way through the reg. Divers may want to consider what they are breathing and how effective their filter is if it looks like this.
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Luckily I’ve never seen that sort of rust in any of my reg filters. So basically even without any signs of maintenance like basic rinsing the ST1 went 7 years before acting up? Pretty impressive, any idea of the number of dives in those 7 years? Maybe those people who can’t be bothered with rinsing do need to keep with the service schedule.
 
Luckily I’ve never seen that sort of rust in any of my reg filters. So basically even without any signs of maintenance like basic rinsing the ST1 went 7 years before acting up? Pretty impressive, any idea of the number of dives in those 7 years? Maybe those people who can’t be bothered with rinsing do need to keep with the service schedule.
he was an off and on again instructor, but when he was off he was doing other diving. I'd guess 200 at a minimum dives per year, maybe up to 400. Cant say for sure, but he had a lot of classes. Atomic recommends a 2 year or 200 dive service interval in the ST1 haha
 
he was an off and on again instructor, but when he was off he was doing other diving. I'd guess 200 at a minimum dives per year, maybe up to 400. Cant say for sure, but he had a lot of classes. Atomic recommends a 2 year or 200 dive service interval in the ST1 haha

So likely more than 1000 dives (++++) before an issue, not yet a failure, impressive. I like my ST1and now I may have a bit more respect for the thing. It looks like most people can go double the factory recommendations especially if they spend a little time doing a post dive rinse/soak.
 
So likely more than 1000 dives (++++) before an issue, not yet a failure, impressive. I like my ST1and now I may have a bit more respect for the thing. It looks like most people can go double the factory recommendations especially if they spend a little time doing a post dive rinse/soak.
It is a bulky beast for sure. I think you should have no problem going passed the recommended service intervals with the ST1. The enviro sealing protects all the delicate parts even through years of abuse and neglect. If your post dive rinse/soak is thorough, you prevent that build up on the ports, lines, and swivel turret seen in the pictures.

Funny side note. When it was tuned to factory spec after service, he brought it back asking me to detune it because he claimed it was too sensitive haha I did, but I wonder how long it'd been breathing a little stiff. I think the reg could have been "having issues" earlier, but only after 7 years did the performance drop finally become noticeable.
 
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So likely more than 1000 dives (++++) before an issue, not yet a failure, impressive. It looks like most people can go double the factory recommendations especially if they spend a little time doing a post dive rinse/soak.

I like your enthusiasm, but I'm not quite sure I'd agree. It's one thing to have a sealed reg with o-rings that see Christolube on one side and dry tank air on the other.
I think it's another to have nothing but the film of lube initially applied to a dynamic oring at service, last three years or more. O-rings in unsealed pistons have dry tank air at HP and LP at the shaft oring, and dry tank air at LP and regular water washing on the piston head side. It's a lot to ask, to have a piston head oring undergoing repeated rinsing of the ambient edge, while seeing only dry air on the other.
It's even more to ask that film of lube on the shaft oring to last more than 3 years/300 dives/300,000 breath cycles without friction degradation.
At least with lube packing, there is the chance of a light wipe of new lube from the packed ambient chamber.

I would call the ST1 testimonial a wonderful anecdote. If there is still absolutely no IP creep at this point, I will be pleasantly surprised. Yes, Atomic makes great precision gear. I personally would not choose to dive an unsealed piston that long, but you can't argue with success!

EDIT: As I reread @Scubis post, perhaps he was telling us the 7-year reg had been sealed? If so, I rest my case.
 
I like your enthusiasm, but I'm not quite sure I'd agree. It's one thing to have a sealed reg with o-rings that see Christolube on one side and dry tank air on the other.
I think it's another to have nothing but the film of lube initially applied to a dynamic oring at service, last three years or more. O-rings in unsealed pistons have dry tank air at HP and LP at the shaft oring, and dry tank air at LP and regular water washing on the piston head side. It's a lot to ask, to have a piston head oring undergoing repeated rinsing of the ambient edge, while seeing only dry air on the other.
It's even more to ask that film of lube on the shaft oring to last more than 3 years/300 dives/300,000 breath cycles without friction degradation.
At least with lube packing, there is the chance of a light wipe of new lube from the packed ambient chamber.

I would call the ST1 testimonial a wonderful anecdote. If there is still absolutely no IP creep at this point, I will be pleasantly surprised. Yes, Atomic makes great precision gear. I personally would not choose to dive an unsealed piston that long, but you can't argue with success!

EDIT: As I reread @Scubis post, perhaps he was telling us the 7-year reg had been sealed? If so, I rest my case.
Yes sir, the reg was sealed. I think that is the only reason it lasted so long.
 

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