Should There Be a "Cold Water" Course (not Ice Diving)?

[ucfdiver]

OW course refers to uncertified divers becoming certified.

Ah, okay, gotcha. I was thinking he meant open water in general, IE a substitute for AOW.

 

[vixtor]

I would like to add a different opinion: it would have been better for you to take a class in Canada, in your normal diving condition. Then you would adjust easily to the nice environment in Jamaica. This, instead of learning in Jamaica and diving in Canada.

Even if you started in Jamaica, maybe it would be a good idea to take another OW class in your normal (cold) environment at home, if you feel you need this for your skills. Or at least continue the certification with the next step (AOW) at home, instead of returing to Jamaica to take it.

I remember some agencies wrote in the descriptions of many certification levels (some even up to divemaster) that the training prepares the diver to dive in conditions similar to those where the training was performed. This means that you were trained to dive in warm water conditions, but not in cold water.

I think there's no need for a different class only for cold water, but it would be wise to train in the hardest conditions you expect to encounter (not the easiest ones).

 

[24940]

Why not teach the basic skills needed to analyze the environment and adjust to it in BOW or AOW?

Neither of them are taught in an overhead environment (deco, ice, wreck, or cave), so I would consider that open water.

We can't dance if you keep changing the music.

FWIW, Of the points covered in this thread, I incorporate virtually all of them into my OW class. My current class is running 4-1/2 to 5 hours per session. There are 9 people in the class and there are 6 sessions before checkouts. Assuming there is no make-up (there will be), I'd make less than $14/hr, before taxes. A class of four grosses about $4.85/hr., assuming no make up. We charge $300.

Something to consider when asking why courses aren't more thorough.

 

[carolrose]

A good o/w course will stress that it is an introduction and a license to continue to learn, and it is up to the diver to choose to continue and invest more time and money or not. If you have no idea whether diving will end up being for you or not, would you really be willing to spend an extra 500 bucks on a longer/more thorough course to find out?

That being said, cold water certainly presents different challanges, even down to equalization with a hood on being slightly more difficult.

 

[ucfdiver]

We can't dance if you keep changing the music.

FWIW, Of the points covered in this thread, I incorporate virtually all of them into my OW class. My current class is running 4-1/2 to 5 hours per session. There are 9 people in the class and there are 6 sessions before checkouts. Assuming there is no make-up (there will be), I'd make less than $14/hr, before taxes. A class of four grosses about $4.85/hr., assuming no make up. We charge $300.

Something to consider when asking why courses aren't more thorough.

I'm saying that any class not taught in an overhead is an OW class to me. I think AOW should be redesigned to something similar to fundies or intro to tech.

 

[fisherdvm]

Have you take the naturalist or fish ID course?

One of my AOW dive was a "naturalist". One of the dives I assisted in my DM course was a "naturarist". Ha, ha, ha... you see nature. Speaks more of what I learned of these courses. But the dives were cheap, my AOW cost was $60, and our local LDS charges like about $120 for the course. Can't beat that - less than a guided dive.

 

[24940]

I'm saying that any class not taught in an overhead is an OW class to me. I think AOW should be redesigned to something similar to fundies or intro to tech.

That's all great, but without running the numbers or studying the feasibility from a business perspective, it's just mental masturbation.

In our area, there are.... five shops offering instruction. We charge $300, have a pool on site and have pretty thorough courses. The competition runs 2-4 pool sessions at the Y or the college and the course is quite abbreviated by comparison. They charge <$200. The majority of people shopping for a course go with our competition to save $100.

Reality has a way of fuxoring idealism, but I like the concept.

 

[scubadiver888]

As relatively new diver who did thier open water dives and advanced open water dives in Jamaica and then started diving here in Canada, I think that the certification agencies need a "COLD WATER DIVER" course. This is different than Drysuit and Ice diving course. Here is my reasoning:

<see original message for all the very good reasons>

Any comments? I know that all that we are supposed to familiarize ourselves with local dive conditions through training but I think for cold water diving we need to go beyond. How do I let PADI etc. know I think this important and that it could save lives and make cold water diving more enjoyable and safe. Has anyone tried to do something like this?

This is a little weird... I'm a relatively new diver who did their open water in Jamaica and I'm now starting to dive here in Canada.

I, however, disagree that there should be a 'Cold Water Diver' course.

Most the people I talk to took the AOW because their friends were AOW and they'd miss out on nice dives because they couldn't go below 60' (dive operators would split them into AOW and OW groups). If there was a 'Cold Water Diver' course I'd question whether anyone would take it.

On the other hand, I talked to local dive shops about diving here in Canada and they all said it is a lot different. So I decided to take my AOW training here. I'm not AOW certified in Jamaica but if I was, I'd take the certification here again just so I felt comfortable here. When I took the AOW here there was two guys who got there OW here. The rest of us were certified in tropical waters. We all had the bright idea to get re-certified here.

Also, the additional courses are usually something simple for around $100 to $125. I would think you need to do quite a few dives under different conditions to really get a feel for diving here. I've had enough dives to be AOW certified, according to PADI. I signed up for a lot more than the minimum and plan on taking another weekend of training (pretty much the same as if I did OW and AOW) before I feel comfortable going diving on my own.

So, yes I believe people who were certified in the Caribbean should get additional training before diving in Canada. I don't think it should be something like a 'Cold Water Diver' course. It should be a refresher course.

For Toronto, you want boat diving, shore diving, wreck diving, deep diving (because it is WAY different in Lake Ontario than in the Caribbean Sea), drift diving, night diving, navigation (needed the compass a LOT more with only 4' of viz). Am I missing anything?

Darrell

 

[vicdiver656]

As relatively new diver who did thier open water dives and advanced open water dives in Jamaica and then started diving here in Canada, I think that the certification agencies need a "COLD WATER DIVER" course. This is different than Drysuit and Ice diving course. Here is my reasoning:

1)Free Flows. Most warm water divers will never have this issue but in the total of 12 cold water dives I have done to date, I have seen 3 free flows (25% of the dives) on different divers regs. In the open water course we just gloss over this issue and do a very small amount of practice on breating from a free flowing reg.

2)Redundant air supplies, I know my buddy is my primary back up for air but after the number of free flows I have seen and stories of both divers free flowing (there is a much greater risk of free flow when two divers are breathing off one regulator), it is clear to me that doubles and appropriately sized pony bottles should be part of cold water diving and that training is needed to use doubles correctly or to properly sling/mount ponies.

3)Equipment, alot of new divers do not realize that regulators need environmental kits for cold water and that not all regulators are equal in cold water (i.e. a great breathing warm water reg is not necessarily the choice for cold water).

4)Dealing With The Cold: I takes time to get used to cold water. I know that the first few minutes I am down, it feels like my second stage is not being held tighly in my lips as they start to go numb, after the lips numb the reg feels fine. Discussing what is normal discomfort and what to do to minimize discomfort is imporatnt.

5)Diving wet verse Diving Dry: Lots of cold water divers prefer to dive wet because they find the dry suit to cumbersome and more to deal with. Pros and cons of both.

6)Mask off training in cold water. Taking your mask off in 40F water is a shock to say the least. Training in cold water for mask clearing, mask removal and replacement is important. The shock of the cold water on the face is much different than that in warm tropical water.

7) Emphasis on "NOT OVERBREATHING YOUR REG". Free flows are often caused by excessive breating on the reg. Hard finning, anxiety etc. can lead to free flows. This needs to be re-enforced in a course. I can breath as hard as my reg will allow in warm water and never have a problem with free flow. If I do the same in cold water, I am asking for trouble. I really did not know this until after I had done a couple of cold water dives.

8) How to deal with a Free Flow. Breathing off the free flowing reg or Sharing air/redundate air and cycling the free flowing reg (turing air off for a minute and then turning it back on). Ascending on the line vs. free ascent etc. Trying to share air and do a free ascent with two people in drysuits takes practice, lines are much safer.

9) Gas Management: Making sure that you have enought air for you and your buddy to do a safety stop if one of you has an out of air emergency or free flow.

Any comments? I know that all that we are supposed to familiarize ourselves with local dive conditions through training but I think for cold water diving we need to go beyond. How do I let PADI etc. know I think this important and that it could save lives and make cold water diving more enjoyable and safe. Has anyone tried to do something like this?

I don't know if there should be a cold water course, but there should be a course teaching divers how to dive in a dry suit, and what the difference is between a cold water reg and a warm water reg, and other major distinctions

 

[D_B]

I'm not sure that a course is needed, but definitely an emphases on why cold water diving is different and more stressful, especially if being taught in some warm water vacation spot.
My instructor did, and I did ask him exactly why divers that learn and dive here are likely to be given more leeway when diving warm waters .. for all the reasons you mention diverrobs .. all the things we take for granted, cold water, thick wetsuits, hoods, can stress a diver new to those conditions

It is why I took Rescue with a ridiculously small number of dives, to make more confidence in myself that my vacation diver friend's first dive in SoCal would be a great one (we also took a refresher beforehand, and it was a great dive)