Some Dive shops just don't work with me

[Lost Yooper]

In all honesty, I'm a price shopper. I don't have a decent shop within reasonable range of where I live. The shops that are around don't sell the gear I want; won't try to get the gear I want; won't offer the training I want; and don't have advice that I need. They do what they do, and I do what I do. Right now, about 98% of the gear I own I bought sight unseen and untried, and I'm as happy as can be.

I understand what's it's like to run a small business and what overhead is all about. I sympothize with them to the degree that their hands are often tied by manufacturers with price fixing for LDS's but not for online super stores -- especially in other countries. The manufacturers are to blame for this, and unless the LDS's are willing to rise up as one voice and PO'ed, it's not going to change. In fact, it will get worse because the internet ain't goin' away.

A group of us have taken it upon ourselves to become totally self sufficient regarding everything. We have the means to research the gear we want. We have a compressor and gasses for the diving we do. We have the means to fix our own gear. We have a list of reputable dive shops that treat us REALLY good for buying gear at great prices.

The internet isn't going to kill diving, but LDS's are in a real bind. They can't raise the cost of classes substantially because no one will spend $800+ for a class they aren't sure they will enjoy or continue with. Of course, this burns us in the poor quality of training we see nowadays too. They aren't going to spend $800 for a reg that a shop simply orders over a phone (and then wait a week+ to get) when they could do the same thing for 1/2 the cost and have it on their door step in four days.

Don't ask me what the answer is for LDS's, but I think it has to begin with the manufacturers leveling the playing field for everyone. The rest is up to the shop owners being salesman. The salesman is the primary componant of capitalism. You have to convince people that what you are selling is worth the cost while remaining honest and likeable -- good luck.

Mike

 

[large_diver]

The answer for the LDS is to add value. You are always going to have what I call unethical customer behavior (i.e. folks who use the LDS for advice and then buy online), but in general, those LDS's that add value will thrive.

Big box and internet stores have certainly changed the landscape in many industries....but at the same time these trends have helped weed out poorly run businesses or have forced others to adapt/improve to survive (advantage: consumer).

Having an air station adds value, but if the advice sucks, the service is surly, the prices are high and the gear selection is limited, why should a shop like this survive? I'm willing to accept some of these, but certainly not all -- and I've seen some LDS's that model all of these unfavorable traits.

LDS's face many challenges -- lack of skilled labor willing to work at reasonable wages, unfavorable pricing/margin demands imposed by big mfrs, etc., etc. -- the same challenges that most small retailers in many industries face.

 

[metridium]

Originally posted by Lost Yooper

The internet isn't going to kill diving, but LDS's are in a real bind. They can't raise the cost of classes substantially because no one will spend $800+ for a class they aren't sure they will enjoy or continue with. Of course, this burns us in the poor quality of training we see nowadays too.

There may something here. I agree with what you said about spending $800 for OW, so maybe there's a case to be made for keeping it subsidized somewhat. If OW training is sufficiently thorough, it might be possible to make up the difference on advanced and worthwhile specialty classes, plus a reasonable profit margin. Make the students proficient with the basics and confident in their abilities (to that point), and there should be an incentive to seek more advanced training that they will already perceive as being necessary and worthwhile (because that's been their experience with you).

The poor quality of training (my perception of it, anyway) in my AOW burned me out as far as further training with my certifying agency went, with the exception of a specialty or two that I needed on short notice. Furthermore, the continuous push for taking all sorts of specialty classes of dubious value also downgraded my perception of that agency's other training courses.

I'm finished with that agency; I will never take another of its courses. I'd rather have a higher-cost, high-value course than a low-cost, low-value course. The important distinction here, in terms of this thread, is that I didn't feel this way until after I had gained some experience and perspective. That's why I'm proposing what I mentioned above. If you don't have high-quality training, you can forget repeat business (patch-collectors aside ).

Otherwise, I agree with what you wrote.

 

[Ed Jewell]

Stated by Metridium:

Instead of driving the LDS out of business, maybe this new economic model will lead to more realistic pricing of instruction and fills, who knows?

In my neck-of-the-woods and open-water class costs $165 - $195. Air fills go for $2.50 - $3.50 (have not changed for 15 years).

How much more realistic pricing do you want. What do open-water classes and air fills cost in your area.

 

[Diversauras]

Originally posted by metridium


I'm finished with that agency; I will never take another of its courses. I'd rather have a higher-cost, high-value course than a low-cost, low-value course. The important distinction here, in terms of this thread, is that I didn't feel this way until after I had gained some experience and perspective. That's why I'm proposing what I mentioned above. If you don't have high-quality training, you can forget repeat business (patch-collectors aside ).

Otherwise, I agree with what you wrote.

That's because you are now a diver, you have transitioned to this higher level where quality is ultimately more important than price. Welcome.

You are the salvation of dive shops and instruction agencies because you now demand value, the kind where price is only one of the factors, and not the most important one.

 

[metridium]

Originally posted by Ed Jewell
Stated by Metridium:
In my neck-of-the-woods and open-water class costs $165 - $195. Air fills go for $2.50 - $3.50 (have not changed for 15 years).

How much more realistic pricing do you want. What do open-water classes and air fills cost in your area.

OW was $250 or so; air fills are around $5.00 or so.

When I say realistic pricing, I mean prices that reflect the true cost of those services, plus a reasonable profit margin.

 

[large_diver]

Economics 101 --

If an LDS provides strong customer service and value-added service/advice, the customer becomes much more price inelastic (meaning purchase intent is less sensitive to price).

I agree that shops in rural, non-coastal areas have it tough.....

 

[metridium]

Originally posted by dkigreg
That's because you are now a diver, you have transitioned to this higher level where quality is ultimately more important than price. Welcome.

You are the salvation of dive shops and instruction agencies because you now demand value, the kind where price is only one of the factors, and not the most important one.

I'm not sure how many of the dive shops I've talked to would agree with you on that.

I'm probably the opposite: a customer who researches extensively, knows what he wants, demands value for the extra costs of dealing with a LDS, and can't be persuaded to buy anything he doesn't need.

 

[chris_b]

Originally posted by Dee
...One that I know about personally is Divers Direct...

Dee, ironic that you mention Divers Direct as a place lacking customer service. We visited their "Worldwide Watersports" store in Key Largo before I even knew that they sold widely on the net. The store was one big fancy showroom, with swimsuits and general watersports stuff up front, while the scuba area took up the rest of the store.

We were looking for a shorty wetsuit for my wife, and there was a female staff member who really helped her out with fit and sizing, having her try on everything that might fit her needs; and they had row upon row of wetsuits on display from which to choose. While she was busy with that, I chatted with a young man working at the "scuba desk" who seemed to know a lot about local diving. From what we saw, it sure looked like a great LDS, and the people working there were top notch and very nice.

We also happened to stop in DD's Florida City shop on our way down, just to have a quick look. There was a lot of stuff on display, I guess it was kind of warehouse-ish, but everything was there for you to touch and try on. The two people working there at the time were very nice and friendly and had an excellent local restaurant recommendation that we really appreciated.

Their prices are nothing like Leisurepro's or Diveinn's, but boy if we had a LDS (nothing here in central Iowa) I would be really happy with something like the DD stores I've been in. Sounds like you had a very different experience, though!

Chris

 

[Dee]

Chris...

I love the one in Key Largo! That's one reason we were looking forward to the other one. I'd have to double check but I believe it WAS in Florida City. Maybe we just caught all the sales staff in a meeting, out to lunch, or whatever but our experience was definitely different from yours!

I still prefer the LDS where I can touch and feel, (aka coon fingering here in Texas), whatever it is I'm interested in buying.