Split from Catalina Diver died.. Advanced Certification is a joke

[RonFrank]

On my AOW, one diver with 12 dives took nearly an hour to don his equipment and get in the water off the boat.

PD

So you are citing an example of some dude who moves at the speed of grass growing as a reason AOW entry requirements need to change?

How can ANY class be a *real advancement in skill?*. So double the class time, and dive time.. is that enough? Unlikley. In the end some things take time and experience. AOW IMO provides a basis to move forward.

If you make divers wait until they have the skills to take the class, then the class becomes pointless.

 

[RonFrank]

It's not really a debate but more like expressing your thoughts.

Potato, Patato...

Sure, posting it here will likely not have any effect on an agency's policy but it might make a new diver realize how important additional training is in their diving life. Hence the location of this thread.

It's in Advanced Discussions?

 

[Michael_Lambert]

I did not take the PADI education however i did not consider myself "Advanced Open Water" after my AWO course...

It was not until i had my OW/ AOW / Nitrox and GUE Fundies and about 300 dives did i actually look back and think then that i was qualified to do the diving i had been doing in the past due to completely lack of knowing any better!

 

[Ken Kurtis]

So many good nuggest in this dicussion thread. THIS is what a good Internet discussion is all about (IMHO). But I digress . . .

Can anyone with more knowledge than me comment on the reading materials?

First, my prejudice is that I'm a NAUI instructor. However, when our store was open, we had predominantly PADI instructors working for us and we were both a NAUI and PADI affiliate.

That being said, I think both the NAUI and PADI materials are quite good. As many have said, it's what an instructor does with the information that mkes a difference. (In fact, before NAUI came out with an "Advanced Class" text, I used to use the PADI book for my NAUI classes.)

It's also important to understand where both programs came from to and how they expect their materials to be used.

NAUI was originally developed as a way for university-based instructors to teach. These were people who were already used to putting together lesson plans, cirriculums, etc. In other words, they already knew how to teach. NAUI provided the standards and rough course outline, but the instructors were left to do much on their own. (In fact, when I first got certified in 1978, NAUI didn't even have it's "own" textbook. We used New Science of Skin & Scuba Diving.)

PADI was created after NAUI and was aimed at people, many ex-military, who wanted to teach scuba diving and had excellent water skills but weren't used to teaching in a classroom setting. For that reason, the PADI materials have always been recipe-driven (my term, not theirs). In other words, they laid everything out step-by-step for the instructor to go from A to B to C because these were people who may not have been used to teaching or even speaking to small groups so PADI materials provided much more support/direction/guidance in those areas.

These two philosophies still exist today. That's why you'll find more quizzes in the PADI books as a requirement, and NAUI only has a workbook whose quizzes are optional.

The danger of the PADI system is that you can have an instructor who simply has you read the book, watch the DVD (or in the old days the VHS), says "Any questions?" and you move on. The danger of the NAUI system is that you have someone who's not a good instructor and doesn't present material well, you somehow muddle through anyhow, pass the final exam (neither the PADI or NAUI standard versions are very challenging IMHO) and you're certified.

Both systems have their plusses and minues and neither is anywhere near perfect and both are open to abuse. As many posters have said, the quality of the instructor, regardless of agency affiliation, makes a huge difference.

But also don't lose sight of the fact that this is a small industry and that a lot of the material is being wirtten by the same people. One of my favorites was in the late 80s or early 90s when I had a newly-minted instructor telling me about how superior the PADI material was to the NAUI material.

"Really?" I said. "Look inside the PADI book and tell me who the author is." He looked and the answer came back, "Dennis Graver."

"Now look inside the NAUI book," I said, " and tell me wrote who wrote that." His face fell a bit as he opened the page, looked up, and said, "Oh . . . Dennis Graver."

So don't get too hung up on where the info comes from or how it's decorated. As I like to say at times: A NAUI embolism is just as bad as a PADI embolism.



- Ken

 

[Pearldiver07]

It's also important to understand where both programs came from to and how they expect their materials to be used.

NAUI was originally developed as a way for university-based instructors to teach. These were people who were already used to putting together lesson plans, cirriculums, etc. In other words, they already knew how to teach. NAUI provided the standards and rough course outline, but the instructors were left to do much on their own. (In fact, when I first got certified in 1978, NAUI didn't even have it's "own" textbook. We used New Science of Skin & Scuba Diving.)

PADI was created after NAUI and was aimed at people, many ex-military, who wanted to teach scuba diving and had excellent water skills but weren't used to teaching in a classroom setting. For that reason, the PADI materials have always been recipe-driven (my term, not theirs). In other words, they laid everything out step-by-step for the instructor to go from A to B to C because these were people who may not have been used to teaching or even speaking to small groups so PADI materials provided much more support/direction/guidance in those areas.

These two philosophies still exist today. That's why you'll find more quizzes in the PADI books as a requirement, and NAUI only has a workbook whose quizzes are optional.
...


- Ken

Ken,

Thanks for this insight.

I've known some of the history of NAUI and PADI, and their roots, but this helps shine a light on the pedagologic differences.

That in turn helps me to understand some of the angst between the two approaches.

 

[Thalassamania]

I think that Ken's points and descriptions, while a dash simplistic, are basically true. But as far as the old, "it's the instructor not the agency," discussion it should be noted that the PADI system prevents those of us who are "people who were already used to putting together lesson plans, cirriculums, etc. In other words, they already knew how to teach" from working with our students in the best way that we are able to. So in terms of the quality of instruction available I, and people with skills similar to mine, are able to deliver a much higher quality program when teaching in NAUI mode, rather then when we are regimented by PADI mode. While neither the instructor nor the agency are absolute, the interactive term is enormous, and can have a huge effect on the quality of the program that a student receives.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

However, the LDS that I took my OW through has been pushing me to take Nitrox and AOW from the moment my instructor signed me off

You've actually hit on the key flaw in the business model of the dive industry. (Doug McNeese has an excellent editorial on this topic in the Sept/Oct 2009 issue of Dive Center Business, page 66.)

If we took a poll of the group here and asked, "Why did you want to learn to scuba dive", I'm willing to be that most of the answers would be some variation of "To go underwater and see the fish and the reefs."

I'm fairly certain none of the answwrs would be "So I could take more classes and buy gear."

The disconnect here is that dive shops haven't figured out ways to make money and stay profitable by anything other than selling you classes and dive gear. So that's what they push. And once they've sold you all the classes you're going to take or all the gear you need, they've got to look for new customers to go through the process again.

On top of that, the indusrtry has fallen victim to the siren song from consumers of "Faster, faster, faster!!" So we've gone from 12-week courses to one-weekend wonders. (But also don't lose sight of the fact that back in "the day" you only had to do TWO open-water dives to be certified. The currents standards came in place in the mid-80s.)

If I had my way, I'd want to work with you for a year, get 100 dives or so under your belt, and charge appropriately. It would be fantastic course that no one would take.

So the industry has to figure out some way to balance out a need for customers, a consumer resistance for a longer course, charging enough for the work we do, etc., etc. (If it was easy to find the solution, this would be a healthier indusrty.)

No real pithy answers here, just outlining some of the problems and hurdles.

- Ken

 

[Thalassamania]

From you description, 100 hours with 12 dives at a price of about a grand with 90% retention for five years and almost everyone in that 90% diving locally (as well as traveling) and buying a drysuit a year or two into it starts to sound like it might work outside of the ivory tower.

 

[Leejnd]

I think that Ken's points and descriptions, while a dash simplistic, are basically true. But as far as the old "it's the instructor not the agency," discussion it should be noted that the PADI system prevents those of us who are "people who were already used to putting together lesson plans, cirriculums, etc. In other words, they already knew how to teach" from working with our students in the best way that we are able to, so in terms of the quality of instruction available I (and people with skills similar to mine) can deliver a much higher quality program if I operate in NAUI mode, than if I am regimented into PADI mode. So while neither one (person or agency) is absolute, the interactive term is enormous and can have a huge effect on the quality of the program that a student receives.

I'm a Training Manager at a Biotech firm. I have my CA Teacher's Credential in Telecommunications, and years of experience teaching adults, and developing technical training material. So I would place myself in the category of "people who know how to teach." (Just putting this out there so my perspective is clear.)

And from that perspective, I will say that IMO, it's (almost) ALL about the instructor, regardless of which course material he/she uses.

We did PADI. (Hey, we were newbies - we didn't know other options existed, and went with what we found at our LDS.) Our instructors were incredible. Yes we did the coursework exactly according to PADI's recipe...but our instructors went beyond what was in the book. We often spent a couple of hours just chatting on the beach before our dives. While we learned the basics from the recipe-driven course material, we learned MORE from our "informal" chats before our dives. I don't think they would have taught us any differently if we'd been in a NAUI class. The classroom material would have been laid out differently, but what we ultimately learned from them would have been essentially the same.

I guess my point is that the quality of the program received (IMO) is way more dependent on the instructor than on the material. While I had no idea that so much of their material is written by the same person, that only reinforces my belief that it's all about the instructor.

I know this has all been discussed before. And it will all get discussed again.

 

[Teamcasa]

The reality of certification is that most new divers do just want to dive a warm water reef somewhere so they meander into the local dive shop and ask the question, "How much and how long will it take". It's after that, where things start to happen.

Their training make take them down many different paths. Some will just do the AOW so they can explore more warm water reefs without the charter giving them grief. Some will fall in love with their local diving and take a path that aligns, cold, deep, ice, caverns, caves or wrecks. Still some will continue their training and move into other more advanced specialties but it all started with the basic OW class.

No single course, instructor or agency is right for all divers. We all have started down the path that best fits our diving and if we are lucky, we are still in love with diving and will continue to get additional training and experience.