Sport Chalet Instruction...new rules

[MikeFerrara]

This reminds me of when vehicle engine computers came out. How many remember manually setting timing & carburetor? Spraying the distributor cap with Water Displacement-40 (WD40)? Gapping our own plugs.

Wish I had my first adding machine, with the hand crank.

Gawd, in nearly 60s years of my life, what has the computer not made better. Thank you JFK for the moon program...!

I don't think computers have made cars better...at least not in some ways. Now, when they stop working nobody can fix them. Not long ago I had a van that when on salty snowy roads the speedometer would go nuts, then the transmission would go nuts. Then I'd be calling a tow truck and getting a rental car. It was fine anyplace there was no salt on thje roads. 4 dealers, a transmission place and an automotive electronics place and no one ever figured it out. You could actually fix the older cars when they quit running. Swapping plugs and setting the timming was a breeze. LOL now you have to buy a new car.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

My dad's speedometer is going nuts. But, I think it's just a cable that needs some graphite or something. It'll bounce back and forth, over a range of 20mph. Problem is most notable at about 45 mph. If my dive computer bounced around on what depth it was, by a range of 20 feet, I'd be getting a new computer. As it is, since it's a car computer and not a dive computer, I think it's funny.

 

[captain]

I just bought a new engine for my boat. I had the choise of computer controlled fuel electronic fuel injection and electronic ignition or carburator and point ignition. I chose carburator and point ignition because I know there is not much that can go wrong with either when I am 30 miles offshore that I can't fix with a few dollars of spare parts and get home. Same with the dive computer and tables, if the computer goes south I can still dive.

 

[MikeFerrara]

JahJajWarrior,



I have to laugh at some people talkng about planning their dives down to the exact bottom time and depth with tables. Yeah, the tech crowd (less than 2-3% of all active divers? if that....) switching to 3, 4 or whatever gasses during their 12 minutes bottom time and then long deco might use tables to that extent. But sport divers? I don't think so.....Anyone taking a NITROX course and owning a NITROX capable computer will likely never look at or use those tables included in their course. I don't and won't.....

What "tech" divers are only doing 12 minute bottom times? We have to have an idea what our depth and bottom time will be to know what gasses and how much of them to bring but our plans can handle a pretty wide range of depths and times. If one doesn't need a computer for a multi gas staged decompression dive, why would you need one for a single gas no-stop dive?

And as far as all these people talking about actually PLANNING a dive? Hah!!! Not sure what sport diving operation you've been out with this year, but in Australia, Bahamas, Cayman and FLA most divemasters I've been with give a briefing including a ballpark depth (it IS the ocean after all and not some theoretical absolute) and maybe a suggested bottom time. Then all the infrequent or uncomfortable divers jump in and just follow the leader Until they run low on gas, usually LONG before they're out of No-Deco time....

Yep, lots of that mindless follow the leader stuff going on but I think it's more underwater tourism than it is diving. Why assume that's where a student is headed? I think it's an industry created situation. Divers dive that way because that's how they are taught to dive.

Anyone with minimal experience using a computer knows what max depth they don't want to exceed on a dive. They jump in and monitor their No-Deco time and step up shallower as the dive progresses dependant on remaining gas supply. That's it out there in the real world.....

Well, there's more to the real world than that.

The real reason we have a high drop out rate IMHO is we think all the clasroom knowledge wil make an enthusiastic scuba diver for life. When the real "hook" is the in water experiences. True weightless of neutral buoyancy, seeing your first turtle, dolphin, shark, beautiful scene or whatever.....People sign up to go dive and get enrolled in a mind-numbing, dragged out dry land session and simply turn off....Sometimes I'm amazed people take to scuba versus buying a mountain bike, snowboarding or some other activity that doesn't have as long a training cycle.

I'm not advocating no classroom knowledge, just flipping it a bit to less dry, more wet training. Thalassamania had it right that being a water person (90 seconds breath hold isn't that hard) making you a better diver. When I started diving you didn't even put ON A TANK until you could snorkel, free dive a bit, show proper fin kicks and such. Today all I see is people swimming around hanging on to the power inflator...Plus kicking the reef stirring up the sand, and as a photographer this is what I use my dive knife for, getting their attention!, JUST KIDDING, folks

I don't think the ten minutes it takes to get through how a table works is what's causing the poor in-water skills. I don't see any evidence that any time being saved in the classroom is being used to increase in-water instruction. As one gets shorter so does the other.

You're right, many sign up to go see a fish and don't want to put in much work. That's pretty much how the whole thing is marketed, sold and taught. It shows in the water too. Droping the tables is just the next step. Why bother with all this certification nonsense in the first place? Anyone who isn't afraid of the water can breath through a reg while a DM drags them around around for a while. Give them a 15 minute orientation and take them on a dive...that's about what's going on anyway.

 

[Thalassamania]

Use the right tool for the right task. If your goal is (as mine is next week) to flop off a boat into warm gin clear water like a dead tuna and have a look around, strictly no-D, then computers are great. On the other hand if I’ve got to service a string of instruments every ten meters from 70 meters up and each instrument should take about ten minutes (so I’ll plan for 15) and I’m planning gas switches and deco, tables and a table based runtime schedule is, to my way of thinking, the only way to go.

 

[EliotD]

As has been pointed out, SDI has eliminated tables (with the exception of a brief mention in the "history of diving" section), TDI, part of the umbrella organization that includes SDI continues to teach tables. I believe this is how the issue should be approached, Joe Vacation Diver owns a computer or rents one when he goes diving, he is going to forget how to use tables a few weeks after his OW class and will just rely on the computer, for him, this is fine. Freddie Tech Diver on the other hand will learn the tables and approach them as the basis for dive plans, he will then use his computer to keep track of the plan, but he can dive tables alone if need be.

This is a reasonable development in the sport, computers are reliable and almost everyone has one, but for more advanced divers who require redundancy, tables are a reasonable back up.

In thinking about this I think back to my divemaster class, 6 students, I was the only tech diver in the group and, when we got to tables, I was the only person (instructor included) who could reliably and accurately read the tables. Many of the other students have been diving longer than i have, and many learnt on the tables alone. That pretty much sums it up if you ask me.

 

[The Chairman]

I just bought a new engine for my boat. I had the choise of computer controlled fuel electronic fuel injection and electronic ignition or carburator and point ignition. I chose carburator and point ignition because I know there is not much that can go wrong with either when I am 30 miles offshore that I can't fix with a few dollars of spare parts and get home. Same with the dive computer and tables, if the computer goes south I can still dive.

Computerphobia...

In a former life I was an auto technician. I remember the advent of electronic ignition. Wow. I remember the first car being towed into our shop! Chester threw up his hands and yelled something about having to be a "TV repairman" in order to fix cars. Imagine his chagrin when it turned out to be a rotor.

Back when points were king, we tuned up cars every 12,000 miles (once a year). Now 100,000 between tune ups is the NORM. That's over EIGHT times the planned failure of points. Change that gap and the resultant dwell, and the timing is now off. What's more? I have yet to meet the mechanic that can describe precisely how points work and why on earth do we need that "condensor"??? That's after spending 30 years in the automotive industry. That some don't see the progress in terms of reliability and gas savings is simply amazing. I, for one, am sure am glad that they don't make them the way they used to.

Take tables. Go ahead and work them at 100 fsw. If you are honest about it, you are dumber than a carrot. I have NO FAITH in your abilities to comprehend what you are doing at depth. But hey, the DC won't fail everytime you hit 100 fsw: only YOU.

And Mike, are you telling me you don't use deco planner or the like? I just don't get the machismo that argues with a sign post and tells it YOU will figure your way home without it. You keep griping about how bad instruction is and I just don't see all the injuries and deaths and I definitely don't see you doing anything about it... except for griping that is.

 

[IslandCowgirl]

What if your computer fails? Understanding the tables and how they work are very important. I see this as one more shortcut that is ultimately at the o/w students' expense. If my 10 year-old can learn the tables, any student can. Ignorance is no excuse, especially when the issue is saftey. I see this as another stellar example of why divers should go to their LDS for educational and equipment needs, not the "bigger guys" where the student is only a number.

H

 

[dhaas]

Mike (and others),

OK, here I go stepping in it after 1.5 glasses of wine

Mike, most tech divers I know do less than 30 minute bottom times (most 20 minutes, MAYBE two times a DIVE day) and aren't down at those depth documenting a wreck, taking documentary photos or video or maintaining instruments as Thallasamania mentions. Most are simply swimming around looking at each other and thinking how cool they look....

You mention new divers wanting to go see the fish and not "put in too much work". Why in hell would anyone want to learn an activity viewed as "work" ? Funny how you suggest dropping everything and just throwing people in the water. Guess what? They do this every friggin' day all over the world at resorts and you don't read about people dying from it like people not strapping their seatbelts on when driving!

No one is advocating eliminating education to be a safe diver...They're just suggesting that maybe with new technology (I think the EDGE really started being sold around 1986) diving can be easier, safer and fun.

Here's another one of my rants.....Most tech divers I know couldn't do a simple Bahamas reef dive where the tide is changing, and it's 120+ over that side of the wall and 75' in the sand channel on the other side. They can't even swim.....In my local quarries they are so overburdened with gear they use scooters 100%. They spend their entire dive monitoring their depth gauges and timers, checking tables, etc. A Whale could swim by and they woudln't see it

A friend who is multi-certified for cave, deep air, blah, blah was on a trip last summer with me and his multi-gas Nitek crapped out 2 days into the trip. He switched to a digital bottom timer and depth gauge but believe me with the # of dives we were doing I was thinking here comes a recompression chamber ride! Luckily he is really good on gas, did super long safety stops after every dive and kept diving. He didn't even look at tables which worried me even more......But I guess that's one reason I don't teach anymore. Treat people like adults and have them sign every form, although you can never cover liability completely.

As far as total time during training, I have never seen ANY instructor teach the concept and use of dive tables in 10 minutes.....More like 2 hours. Then 2 more the next week when everyone is confused

Oh yeah, IslandCowgirl, how many computer failures DURING DIVES have you seen personally? (Not picking on you, I am actually a fun loving, friendly guy I've seen 2-3 and all on Air Integrated computers. Usually the dive computer works but the gas PSI dies.....One brand in particular....Hoseless transmitting ones are not my favorite either. I've seen plenty of mechanical SPGs fail, get stuck, etc. And I've seen TONS of mechanical depth gauges that I wouldn't trust for depth readings. I wouldn't drive an old car across town. NetDoc has it right as to the increased reliability today (if you buy the right brand

Oh well, I'm tired and need more wine (as Jimmy Buffet says in "Gypsies in the Palace"

Good luck to all diving 1,2 3, or more times per day! I will be with my dive computer

David Haas
www.haasimages.com

 

[IslandCowgirl]

To date, I have experienced one dive computer malfunction where the entire computer zeroed out (at depth, when I attempted to back-light it so that I could read it) during a dive in an unfamiliar locale. The computer has long since been replaced, but yes, Mr. Haas, it can happen.
What if Mr. Joe Average Vacation Diver takes a trip and while on the dive boat, his computer fails to function. Without a clear understanding of how residual nitrogen can effect a diver, Mr. JAVD might not only be putting himself at risk but his buddy as well. I just think it to be a bad idea to put yourself in a situation without clearly understanding the risks and how to avoid them. And I think that by teaching diving without teaching the tables is a risk to the student. I will continue to teach the tables. My dive shop will continue to teach the tables. And SSI will continue to demand that we teach the tables.
Oh yeah, and you won't see me at the local Sports Chalet buying anything other than snowboarding equipment.