Sport Chalet Instruction...new rules

[dhaas]

IslandCowGirl,

Please, oh please don't take this discussion as attacks....

Ok you've personally experienced a dive computer failure. Most computers if started on the surface (to get an ambient pressure reading as a baseline) won't work if battery power is low, the pressure transducer is kaput, etc. I (and maybe other Scubaboard divers) would like to know what the diagnosis was and why your computer totally stopped working UNDERWATER. By comparison I can tell you one brand of computer that had over 10 million dives on the algorithm, and this was in the early 1990s.....So failures aren't commonplace, especially today....

JAVD likely can't read and comprehend the data underwater even if he has a depth guage and watch. Or tables in his gear bag... He's on vacation AND IS PAYING A DIVEMASTER TO BABYSIT HIM. So he can go have some fun, then go soak up some rays and suck down some Coronas He will use the divemaster's expertise to lead him around keeping him underwater for a safe bottom time. That's what is happening in the real sport diving world.....Everyday....

In my 36 years of being "in the business" I've seen bad PADI, SSI, NAUI, YMCA, NASDS and many, many more stores who are barely hanging on because they just can't balance teaching people to have fun, and then sell them some gear (where a dive store can really only make their money) and then take them diving enough to wear out that gear and buy more. So it ain't about the certification brand or teaching tables versus using a dive computer intelligently. It's about giving your customers what they came into the store in the first place for....Fun, excitement, exploration........Not a PH. D in bubble blowing, data spitting, gear measurbating drivel....

Hey, I need more wine!

All in fun.....

dhaas

 

[JahJahwarrior]

I'll make two points:
1) you can learn about nitrogen absorption without learning tables. When it doubt, you could always spend as long as possible at 15 feet, if your computer crapped on you. Sure, you might lose the rest of the day but if you are really concerned about safety, then you'd rather sit out a dive than become a Scuba Dier. Tables are not necessary for learning how to dive and if someone knows a computer well, they will probably be fine in most situations. Nowadays, instead of computers being used in speciality situations, tables are used in speciality situations. I don't think you can argue much with this paragraph.
2) Ok, so it actually took me 20 minutes to learn tables. I don't work table problems much for fun but I won't deny that I have when I'm bored. Then again, I'm the kind of guy that will take a shower in the dark to see how well I can get clean and find everything by touch. (I keep a flashlight with me just incase I really get in trouble). I'm wierd, Im odd, and I work tables for fun sometimes to see theoretically what I could do while diving But yeah, it took me about 20 minutes to learn and become competent with tables. That said, I still can't figure out repetitive dives on this Naui table I have, nor can I figure them out on the Dacor table. Oneday, I'll try it while narc'd and I bet I'll get it first try. Sort of like walking on a rocking ship: normal people keep running into the walls, hav ea drink or two and you can walk straight as a line no matter what the swells are.

But two hours, and you've forgotten it a week later? Heck, I could teach my little brother who's ADHD how to use a table in an hour and he might still remember it a week later! Anyone who really wants to dive can learn a table. Anyone who can't learn a table doesn't want to dive badly enough. (becuase where there is a will, there is a way).

 

[The Chairman]

I broke my tables once. They were in my BC pocket. The remnants are still inside the pocket of that jacket BC.

If a dive computer, depth gauge or watch tanks, it's time to call the dive. That way NO ONE is in danger. Don't they teach that in SSI?

 

[dhaas]

JahJah,

Showering in the dark? TMI (too much information!) dude

You need to get out more......Diving that is!

Buy a computer first....

dhaas

 

[IslandCowgirl]

Yes, Net Doc, they teach that in SSI. But you already knew that. Aeris was unable to both diagnose the problem or pull my dive history out of the computer. It malfunctioned after about 40 dives. I have switched brands. My personal computer experience is not my main point. A question was asked and I answered it.
Bottom line, cutting corners when teaching diving fundamentals is not a good idea. By denying the "newbie diver" the opportunity to learn about the tables is just plain stupid. What if they forget to bring their ediveplanner along on the dive? We have already established that they are not that familiar with the console, they at the very least need to have some idea of "how much" and for "how long". They need to also understand the importance of diving within the recreational dive limits, what they are and why they exist. I'm not trying to get on anyone's case here. It is just common sense. Computer diving makes diving easier, but nothing replaces common sense and training. And it's the lack of training and the shortcuts to training that cause me concern.

 

[captain]

Computerphobia...

In a former life I was an auto technician. I remember the advent of electronic ignition. Wow. I remember the first car being towed into our shop! Chester threw up his hands and yelled something about having to be a "TV repairman" in order to fix cars. Imagine his chagrin when it turned out to be a rotor.

Back when points were king, we tuned up cars every 12,000 miles (once a year). Now 100,000 between tune ups is the NORM. That's over EIGHT times the planned failure of points. Change that gap and the resultant dwell, and the timing is now off. What's more? I have yet to meet the mechanic that can describe precisely how points work and why on earth do we need that "condensor"??? That's after spending 30 years in the automotive industry. That some don't see the progress in terms of reliability and gas savings is simply amazing. I, for one, am sure am glad that they don't make them the way they used to.

Take tables. Go ahead and work them at 100 fsw. If you are honest about it, you are dumber than a carrot. I have NO FAITH in your abilities to comprehend what you are doing at depth. But hey, the DC won't fail everytime you hit 100 fsw: only YOU.

And Mike, are you telling me you don't use deco planner or the like? I just don't get the machismo that argues with a sign post and tells it YOU will figure your way home without it. You keep griping about how bad instruction is and I just don't see all the injuries and deaths and I definitely don't see you doing anything about it... except for griping that is.

I get that computer vs point argument all the time and I have no problem at all with modern cars, I have a car with a 345 HP V8 that gets 30 MPG at 70 on the highway and 26 in the city, that couldn't be done without a computer, but if it decides to quit I use the cell and call road serve. By contrast if I am 30 miles offshore and the weather is starting to turn nasty and the $1.98 condenser goes south I can slap another in and be on my way. Yes the point require more maintenance, but for the price of one engine computer I can buy a lifetime of spare points and condensers. And I do know how a point ignition works and what the condenser is for. Something only has to happen one time to have a good day turn into a real bad one. Doesn't matter if it was a 1 in 12 or 1 in 100,000 chance when it happens.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

I think I'm a pretty cool dude....I went on a cruise a week ago. Was chatting with some people I met and when they found out I'm 17, they just HAD to introduce me to their daughters, 17 and 20. No joke, they were litereally across the hall from my room. I guess they didn't like me though, I saw them on the first and the last day of the cruise, and that was it.

It could have had something to do with the dive computer I was wearing. Modern people have these nifty ones that looklike a wristwatch. Mine is bright blue and the size of a hockey puck (Suunto Favor S, air only. What can I say, I got a steal of a deal on it!). They seemed like nice girls too. I ran into another guy almost every day, but never saw those girls the entire cruise.



^hey, atleast it's better than trying to tell time by tables!



^I actually wasn't wearing the computer. The girls just didn't like me I guess. Maybe I shouldn't have told them how I practice showering inthe dark.

^But really, it's Florida, hurricane's happen! I've been forced to shower inthe dark (OOL--out of light) so I figured I might as well get good at it! Not only that, but I'm busy setting records so I can laugh when girls tell me they spend half an hour getting ready in the morning. I swear I can get in, out, and dressed in less than 5 minutes, without the lights.


^That doesn't impress girls.


I get the feeling that this thread is starting to die a slow death, much like dive tables.

 

[The Chairman]

Yes, Net Doc, they teach that in SSI. But you already knew that. Aeris was unable to both diagnose the problem or pull my dive history out of the computer. It malfunctioned after about 40 dives. I have switched brands. My personal computer experience is not my main point. A question was asked and I answered it.

Crap happens... it's good to see that you managed to survive in spite of your computer.

Bottom line, cutting corners when teaching diving fundamentals is not a good idea.

Again, you gain nothing by teaching how to use a slide rule in chemistry today. Tables are nothing more than a contrivance to guesstimate our nitrogen load. I can teach on/off gassing with those two 2 litre bottles far better than with a table. Using your logic we should teach how to breath off of the tank before we cut them loose with a regulator.

The bad part? I don't see tables being used by those without computers. Nada, zilch, none! These people never "got it". Why? Tables are obtuse. They are not intuitive and they are more trouble than most are willing to give. Let's teach people a skill that they will USE.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

You know, the teacher of my physics class spent nearly 30 minutes one day trying to explain slide rules. There are 6 of us in the class (small private high school, less than 300 students, k-12. what can I say, I love it. They let me teach a class! Technically,it's part of drama but I get to teach it in my own classroom and I have keys to the building and I get paid. It's almost not worth it, I could get more money mowing a lawn, but hey, it's something!) and all but one of us got it entirely within 3 minutes. Of course, we were just doing very simple problems on a giant slide rule, we aren't pros, but all 5 guys in the class agreed it made perfect sense. The lone girl in the classroom not only didn't get it, she didn't see the point. 25 minutes of sleep was nice though. I think she finally sort of understood it. I know she's got the highest grade in the class, so it didn't matter if she got it or not, there's no way we can insult her since she's got the highest grade. Of course, I've got the second highest and I understood slide rule addition to boot.

 

[TxHockeyGuy]

I'm still in favor of teaching tables but the more I think about it the more I find myself agreeing with NetDoc's position. I saw my brother try to work the dive tables the last time we were on a cattle boat in Cayman and I didn't double check what he was doing. He was paired up with a more experienced diver as was I and I later found out that he was diving his buddies computer but he thought he was still within the dive tables. When I reran his dive profile against the tables he was well into deco. Unfortunately he is the typical diver out there and I see why many operations require dive computers and tell everyone don't let this number hit 0 and let me know when your air is X. It's sad but that is the state of the diving industry today. I on the other hand don't want my training watered down to the common denominator so I would very much like to see tables, as well as some other things they've stopped teaching, continued to be taught. That being said I certainly understand just touching on tables since in reality almost no one uses them anyway.