Starting Over After a Few Years and Terrible Experience

[durham64]

I'm curious to this "pull down". I'm envisioning this as more of one singular motion of just pulling someone under, how deep did you end up going? I know you have no memory reportedly of it but do others you dove with know? Any pain on the way? Seems odd to me to be jerked under without any warning to say 10-15ft and blacking out and memory loss from a lack of equalization. Not saying it's not impossible, everything in your sinuses are so closely connected with your nervous system that I could see it happening (obviously since it did). I'd just imagine a very recognizable pain that would make me tell the "assisting diver" to stop first in a more controllable situation.

My own verbiage and pondering aside, that really sucks and I hope you're able to start your diving again but yes, consult a medical professional familiar with dive medicine first.

261311,

I will try to describe it in more detail to the best of my ability. The group of 8 of us were standing at one platform, plus the instructor. We were asked to step off and descend to the 25 ft platform. We all took a walking stride off at basically the same time. The other 7 started to descend, but I was not sinking at all. I was trying to figure out what to do when someone grabbed me by the ankle and pulled me straight down. According to my dive partner, who I talked to for the first time a few days later, I was pulled down almost to the platform, which if correct, would have been around 20 feet. I remember feeling a sharp pain in my head, like someone stabbing icepicks in my ears.

At what point between the surface and the 20 feet that this happened, I don't know. I just know that I didn't have time, obviously, to clear my ears or even realize what was happening because I blacked out. Perhaps there was something wrong with my sinuses already, that I was unaware of, just guessing here...maybe I can look it up later and see if there is any relation to sudden descent, burst eardrums and syncope.

I really wish I knew why it happened or how, but unfortunately I do not. I really do want to start diving again, so I hope I can find someone willing to work with me after I am cleared by an ENT. Thanks for your comments and suggestions, I appreciate them very much.

Holley

 

[261311]

Understandable then, thanks still learning myself about limitations, it's sometimes more convenient to learn from someone else's shared experiences.

I'm by no means a medical professional but as far as "how", your ears aren't used to large, quick changes in PSI. Water is a very effective medium to do so because of the density and of course, compounding weight of the liquid on top of you. When you start descending (rapidly makes it worse) without equalizing the pain is your ears way of reminding you to either stop, or equalize. The body can naturally equalize on its own but it's incredibly painful, dangerous and a hit or miss whether or not it could do this anyways, especially without damaging tissue. The pain is just the outer pressure exceeding the inner pressure, that's why when you gently blow air and re-pressurize (equalize) your ears to the ambient pressure, it feels more comfortable and pain-free. Usually you don't have to worry about this when ascending but reverse blocks are also real (usually from when you dive with a cold).

Personally I need to equalize right now every 1-2 meters I descend, you went a full 6.5 without equalizing at all, that's quite drastic if I had to make a guess. Just remember that if you're cleared to dive, slow and controlled descents will always let you equalize comfortably on your own schedule. You shouldn't be forced or rushed under where you can't control your descent because given it's a personal pain, you need to feel it and it becomes harder to halt descent if you're not in control of it directly.

Nothing wrong with being buoyant and needing more lead, I sink already- I wish I had buoyancy. Swimming would be less fuss at times when I start to tire.

 

[herman]

herman,

I will definitely get a good checkout first, and thanks for reminding me of DAN for a recommendation. Wow, it sounds like the shop you work with has the right idea, a DM on any class more than 3 people. Like I mentioned, there were 8 in my class and the instructor really did not pay much individual attention to each student. I guess it would be hard to with that many people in one group.

It makes me feel hopeful that there are people like you out there, who would be by my side, no matter how long it takes, as opposed to what I have experienced in the past.

I have a great friend that lives in Raleigh, although she doesn't dive. She is constantly trying to get me to move there so she will have someone to hang out with as she is not originally from there. I kid her and say "then I would be Holley Durham from Raleigh-Durham and that would look funny on a mailing address" just cutting up. But seriously, if I ever did move there, I would certainly look you up for some lessons. You are just the type of DM I need to jump back into this without the fear!

Thanks so much, I appreciate your post and advice!

Holley

There is a good reason we are such a busy shop.
If you are ever in town and want to give our lovely quarry a go, drop me a line (PM) here, be happy to join you if I can. Don't give up, there are a lot of good shops out there, you just have to find them.

 

[rmh84]

I could see a quick pull down to 20 feet could cause the damage - I remember as a kid diving right down to the bottom of the deep-end knowing nothing about equalizing would get pain at the bottom (about 9'), and often a nosebleed when I came back up.

I admit to using the "pull buddy down" method on my mother - HOWEVER it was with her consent, and holding her hand to decent slowly to about 10 feet where everything was fine (she dives in a wing that i'm convinced she had trapped air in. once we got her down to abut 10' she was just fine though - and now is fine on her own, though a little slower to decend then the rest of us).

My understanding is you need about 4lbs MORE weight to dive in salt water VS fresh, (so if you're 10lbs fresh, you'd be 14lbs in salt). Which should have meant you were overweighted rather then under if you went straight from the saltwater dive to the ocean dive. Perhaps you had some air trapped in your BCD - which can certainly mimic underweightedness. My technique for this is to locate my purge valves and use them. Lots of people don't like to use them for fear of getting water in your BCD, but I don't have an issue with this so long as I remember to rinse mine through with fresh water before storing my gear.

 

[fnfalman]

My understanding is you need about 4lbs MORE weight to dive in salt water VS fresh, (so if you're 10lbs fresh, you'd be 14lbs in salt). Which should have meant you were overweighted rather then under if you went straight from the saltwater dive to the ocean dive. Perhaps you had some air trapped in your BCD - which can certainly mimic underweightedness. My technique for this is to locate my purge valves and use them. Lots of people don't like to use them for fear of getting water in your BCD, but I don't have an issue with this so long as I remember to rinse mine through with fresh water before storing my gear.

Since that none of us were there and the OP didn't exactly remember the event in details, my opinion is that he was probably grossly overweighted (going from saltwater to freshwater AND probably overweighted for saltwater in the first place). Then while the OP was fiddling with the BC's inflator, maybe the trapped air got dislodged and vented. When that happened, he sank like a rock.

I think that the instructor wouldn't be stupid enough to "pull" a student down, and the other students were probably too busy worrying about themselves than trying to pull somebody else. Not to mention, unless the "puller" was grossly overweighted himself, it's pretty hard to just pull somebody who is buoyant on the surface down in a rate so rapid that it would induce ruptured ear drums.

I've never pulled anybody down from the surface, but I tried to keep others from surfacing too fast due to air trapped in BC or bad venting tecnique. I'd dump all my air from my BC and it would barely slow the other diver's ascension rate.

To the OP, just follow the already given advices:

1. Get with an ENT to have your ears thoroughly checked out, preferrably a diving ENT - check with Divers Alert Network (DAN) to see if they can recommend an ENT doctor in your area.

2. Get with a shop that can cater to your needs. I find it hard to believe that during your first try, an instructor would try to manage 8-students without at least a divemaster to help out.

 

[Diver0001]

Thanks in advance for anyone who can shed some light on the subject and maybe provide suggestions.

Holley

What a horrible thing to have happen!

Holley, just to be sure there will be no complications, I would recommend getting your ears checked out by an ENT. Good for you that you're willing to give it another try.

R..

 

[Divealpha]

My wife had a similar experience on one of her first dives in cold water, after doing our .Owd in Asia. The DM (private) emptied his drysuit and BCD to get her down. She did not have enough weights and popped up immidiately, resulting in one eardrum blasted....took 3 months before she could dive again. The LDS would not take any responsibility at all, so we changed to another one.... She just did dive no. 100 in Asia, but inbetween also had a graft transplant ....
Try diving again! We have been lucky, as 99 % of DMs and instructors we have been diving with, have been just great & dedicated.
So, just find a DM you are confident with, and go for it!

Sent from my GT-P7500 using Tapatalk 2

 

[261311]

My wife had a similar experience on one of her first dives in cold water, after doing our .Owd in Asia. The DM (private) emptied his drysuit and BCD to get her down. She did not have enough weights and popped up immidiately, resulting in one eardrum blasted....took 3 months before she could dive again. The LDS would not take any responsibility at all, so we changed to another one.... She just did dive no. 100 in Asia, but inbetween also had a graft transplant ....

Consult the agency the dive shop operated under with the full story and the medical records to prove what happened. The dive shop accepting responsibility isn't where it has to stop as other divers are being threatened the same dangers if this is their "process".

 

[durham64]

Understandable then, thanks still learning myself about limitations, it's sometimes more convenient to learn from someone else's shared experiences.

I'm by no means a medical professional but as far as "how", your ears aren't used to large, quick changes in PSI. Water is a very effective medium to do so because of the density and of course, compounding weight of the liquid on top of you. When you start descending (rapidly makes it worse) without equalizing the pain is your ears way of reminding you to either stop, or equalize. The body can naturally equalize on its own but it's incredibly painful, dangerous and a hit or miss whether or not it could do this anyways, especially without damaging tissue. The pain is just the outer pressure exceeding the inner pressure, that's why when you gently blow air and re-pressurize (equalize) your ears to the ambient pressure, it feels more comfortable and pain-free. Usually you don't have to worry about this when ascending but reverse blocks are also real (usually from when you dive with a cold).

Personally I need to equalize right now every 1-2 meters I descend, you went a full 6.5 without equalizing at all, that's quite drastic if I had to make a guess. Just remember that if you're cleared to dive, slow and controlled descents will always let you equalize comfortably on your own schedule. You shouldn't be forced or rushed under where you can't control your descent because given it's a personal pain, you need to feel it and it becomes harder to halt descent if you're not in control of it directly.

Nothing wrong with being buoyant and needing more lead, I sink already- I wish I had buoyancy. Swimming would be less fuss at times when I start to tire.

Thanks for your comments and insight. I didn't have problems in the previous two dives, at the river and the salt water, when it comes to equalizing. I also wonder if the cold water of the quarry (combined, of course with the sudden descent) had something to do with the reaction my body had to all this?

Just speculation, but I guess being buoyant isn't bad all the time, like you said! Just happened to bad that one particular time, I suppose.

Thanks so much!

---------- Post added March 25th, 2013 at 04:01 PM ----------

I could see a quick pull down to 20 feet could cause the damage - I remember as a kid diving right down to the bottom of the deep-end knowing nothing about equalizing would get pain at the bottom (about 9'), and often a nosebleed when I came back up.

I admit to using the "pull buddy down" method on my mother - HOWEVER it was with her consent, and holding her hand to decent slowly to about 10 feet where everything was fine (she dives in a wing that i'm convinced she had trapped air in. once we got her down to abut 10' she was just fine though - and now is fine on her own, though a little slower to decend then the rest of us).

My understanding is you need about 4lbs MORE weight to dive in salt water VS fresh, (so if you're 10lbs fresh, you'd be 14lbs in salt). Which should have meant you were overweighted rather then under if you went straight from the saltwater dive to the ocean dive. Perhaps you had some air trapped in your BCD - which can certainly mimic underweightedness. My technique for this is to locate my purge valves and use them. Lots of people don't like to use them for fear of getting water in your BCD, but I don't have an issue with this so long as I remember to rinse mine through with fresh water before storing my gear.

Hi rmh84,

Good point about the BCD and trapped air. I don't think this was the case, because during the buoyancy check, I had paid attention to that very thing, unless I did something I was unaware of to cause this to happen between point A and point B.

I would not have minded at all having someone pull me down with some discussion at the surface and doing it very slowly so that I could equalize properly. This is actually a good idea, like what you did with your mother, if she was having problems. With good communication and assistance, you both made it where you needed to be safely.

I will eventually find someone to work with and overcome this. Thanks so much for participating in the discussion and every little tidbit of information is very helpful!

Holley

---------- Post added March 25th, 2013 at 04:21 PM ----------

Since that none of us were there and the OP didn't exactly remember the event in details, my opinion is that he was probably grossly overweighted (going from saltwater to freshwater AND probably overweighted for saltwater in the first place). Then while the OP was fiddling with the BC's inflator, maybe the trapped air got dislodged and vented. When that happened, he sank like a rock.

I think that the instructor wouldn't be stupid enough to "pull" a student down, and the other students were probably too busy worrying about themselves than trying to pull somebody else. Not to mention, unless the "puller" was grossly overweighted himself, it's pretty hard to just pull somebody who is buoyant on the surface down in a rate so rapid that it would induce ruptured ear drums.

I've never pulled anybody down from the surface, but I tried to keep others from surfacing too fast due to air trapped in BC or bad venting tecnique. I'd dump all my air from my BC and it would barely slow the other diver's ascension rate.

To the OP, just follow the already given advices:

1. Get with an ENT to have your ears thoroughly checked out, preferrably a diving ENT - check with Divers Alert Network (DAN) to see if they can recommend an ENT doctor in your area.

2. Get with a shop that can cater to your needs. I find it hard to believe that during your first try, an instructor would try to manage 8-students without at least a divemaster to help out.

fnfalman,

I'm the OP and I'm a "she", lol. That's ok, just wanted to let you know. I would agree with your hypothesis, except for being grossly over-weighted. I did the buoyancy check, which was required by the instructor and did not sink. I brought this to his attention and was told to "just give it a try", which I did.

I know at the point that I did the check, the BC was completely purged of air, the instructor checked to be sure of this. Now if there was air there, and I did something to dislodge it, that could explain why at some point I sank like a rock. As to who or why someone would or could pull me down, I don't know.

I will definitely follow the advice in regard to the the ENT. And find a shop that will be willing to work with me on specific issues. As to the instructor handling 8 students without a DM to help out, that is exactly how this dive happened. I assumed that was normal, because it was all new to me at that point. I didn't know what the ratio of instructor/diver should have been. But now that I do, I will be sure to consider this and ask all the appropriate questions, if I end up not taking private lessons.

Thanks for your comments and suggestions!

Holley

---------- Post added March 25th, 2013 at 04:26 PM ----------

What a horrible thing to have happen!

Holley, just to be sure there will be no complications, I would recommend getting your ears checked out by an ENT. Good for you that you're willing to give it another try.

R..

Diver0001,

Thanks for the sage advice. A must do before continuing on. And I will surely give it another go...I know there are great people out there and now that I understand more of what is "normal" for OW standards and practices, I am better educated to pursue it.

Thanks again,

Holley

---------- Post added March 25th, 2013 at 04:30 PM ----------

My wife had a similar experience on one of her first dives in cold water, after doing our .Owd in Asia. The DM (private) emptied his drysuit and BCD to get her down. She did not have enough weights and popped up immidiately, resulting in one eardrum blasted....took 3 months before she could dive again. The LDS would not take any responsibility at all, so we changed to another one.... She just did dive no. 100 in Asia, but inbetween also had a graft transplant ....
Try diving again! We have been lucky, as 99 % of DMs and instructors we have been diving with, have been just great & dedicated.
So, just find a DM you are confident with, and go for it!

Sent from my GT-P7500 using Tapatalk 2

Wow Divealpha,

I hate to hear that this happened to your wife as well. Hopefully you can take 261311's advice and pursue this further. I wish only the best for you and wife in the future.

As for me, I am now on the search for that special DM and will continue on in my quest to become OW certified once and for all.

Thanks for joining in!

Holley

 

[fnfalman]

fnfalman,

I'm the OP and I'm a "she", lol. That's ok, just wanted to let you know. I would agree with your hypothesis, except for being grossly over-weighted. I did the buoyancy check, which was required by the instructor and did not sink. I brought this to his attention and was told to "just give it a try", which I did.

I know at the point that I did the check, the BC was completely purged of air, the instructor checked to be sure of this. Now if there was air there, and I did something to dislodge it, that could explain why at some point I sank like a rock. As to who or why someone would or could pull me down, I don't know.

I will definitely follow the advice in regard to the the ENT. And find a shop that will be willing to work with me on specific issues. As to the instructor handling 8 students without a DM to help out, that is exactly how this dive happened. I assumed that was normal, because it was all new to me at that point. I didn't know what the ratio of instructor/diver should have been. But now that I do, I will be sure to consider this and ask all the appropriate questions, if I end up not taking private lessons.

Thanks for your comments and suggestions!

Holley

Oops, sorry about the gender mix-up.

So, you didn't use the same weight in saltwater as you did in the quarry?

If you're that buoyant (i.e. underweighted), it'd be extremely tough to pull you down unless the other person is well overweighted.

It could also be that you were overweighted but didn't realize that you were, yet you couldn't sink because you were treading water. I had this issue during my OW checkout dive. I kept finning and didn't even realize it. Maybe this is what you were doing and then somebody grabbed your leg, then you stopped finning and sank like a rock.

At this point, it's really just speculation, but next time when you do a weight check, look down and make sure that your legs aren't automatically kicking.