Steel tank Wetsuit question

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Manos,

I dive my doubles (tiny slim 72's) with no wet or dry suit, so suit compression is not an issue. With a completely deflated BC, I have no trouble swimming them up. I've tested it.
 
You guys are right, the issue is not the weight of the tanks, but diving a balanced rig.

If someone makes a steel tank that has the same weight characteristics as AL80's, then obviously the "no steel tanks with a wetsuit" would make no sense.

The reason we have the "no steel tanks in a wetsuit" rule is that there are plenty of people out there who will strap on a set of double LP104's, put on a wetsuit and go diving. Then you have a disaster like that guy in FL a few years ago, where the instructors could not get him off the bottom.

So the shorthand is "no steel tanks in a wetsuit", but the much more important rule is to dive a balanced rig. If your rig is balanced, then it doesn't really matter what your tanks are made of. I'm pretty sure G.I. even has said this.

Manos and DIR Techdiver mean well, even though the sometimes come across a little harsh. Let's give 'em a break.
 
Just curious - can anyone tell what kind of tanks Mike Kane is using in this shot?

Thanks

Marc
 
Manos and DIR Techdiver mean well, even though the sometimes come across a little harsh. Let's give 'em a break.
Your post was dead on Braunbehrens... it isn't the message, it is the delivery. You guys undo years of work by some people on this board to get the message out by coming here and trashing people like this is quest or techdiver.

I'll stay out of it, but I can't stand the attitudes...that is what has to stop or people turn it off immediately, IMHO..

We already have access to MHK and Sherwood on this forum...we really don't need the legions of sockpuppets..
 
First, as others have pointed out, its not the tank material - its the buoyancy characteristic.

Second, its ALL in the mass of the gas, to the 90th percentile anyway. Nothing more or less. Why, you ask? Here's why:

1. You MUST NOT ditch at depth. Anyone who dives knows this, or at least should know this. IF you ditch weight diving wet you are screwed as you ascend - your suit will decompress, gain buoyancy, and you will be unable to stop the ascent. BAD BAD BAD! Ditching weight is for the SURFACE, where you're up and want to insure you STAY up.

2. If you cannot swim up the rig from the bottom with a total BC failure, you need a second, redundant source of buoyancy. This is usually going to be a drysuit, but for wet divers it could be a lift bag. The point is that you NEED some means of being able to swim up the rig, not to include ditching weight.

3. For "deep divers" (beyond rec depths) this works out pretty well since in general as you go deeper the water gets colder, and your exposure time increases (since you have deco to take care of). As such drysuits and technical diving work well together, even in what would otherwise be "warm" (at the surface) water. You can become hypothermic in 80 degree water, and you can become dangerously so in 70 degree water. Below 70F water dry suit protection for any deco dive is pretty much mandatory simply due to hypothermia issues.

4. You must be able to hold position in the water column at anywhere from the surface to maximum depth at any point in the dive, and it is particularly important to be able to do so without significant exertion when LOW ON GAS, as exerting to stay DOWN increases your gas consumption AND makes you MORE buoyant!

So where does this leave you?

1. You need to do your weight check at the surface with a nearly empty tank. If you can remain in the water column with only breath control at 1' under the surface with an empty tank, your rig is weighted properly. Period. If and only if you are inescapably negative with a nearly-empty tank and zero or very little ditchable weight in your given configuration are you overweighted and/or you need to consider a different tank config.

2. The more gas you take, the more it masses. Thus, the more negative you will be at the START of the dive. The material the tank is made of and its buoyancy, empty or full, do not affect this.

3. If you dive in a place without a hard floor, or where the floor is below the MOD of your mix or where you are willing to decend to, then you must have a secondary means of buoyancy IF your total negative buoyancy at your maximum planned depth, with full tank(s), exceeds your ability to swim up the rig.

4. If you cannot EASILY swim up your rig from planned depth at the "rock bottom" gas point (accounting for any deco obligation you may have incurred) then your exposure protection is being excessively compressed by depth (since at this point most of your gas mass is gone) and you need to consider either redundant buoyancy or whether your exposure protection choice is a wise one. That consideration will likely lead you to choose to dive dry.

In general even a wetsuit with a single LP104 will be just fine, provided you have a lightweight (not significantly negative) rig otherwise. For example, with my BP+Wing (steel BP + STA) I need 6lbs with an AL80 in a 3 mil wetsuit, and 1 or 2 lbs with a HP100.

If I wanted to dive an LP104, I could drop back to an AL BP with no STA, or use a lightweight STA, and still have a balanced rig.

Now DOUBLE LP104s wouldn't work in that configuration.

But double HP100s would!

Finally, that picture of MHK is pretty funny. Here's the guy who is one of the "poster children" for the GUE "must be fit" crowd - and he has a pretty obvious beer belly WAY beyond what I had a year ago in that wetsuit....

Amazing how the double-standard works...
 
I know PST tanks are more negative and they are the tank of choice for some, however, may original post was about faber tanks. The numbers I have found have them almost the same in buoyancy so I was wondering if I missed something about steel. However, it appears I haven't. Anyone have a good reason why double faber 95s would present a problem over double Al 80s.
 
Yes, they well might.

Can you weight for neutral at the surface with low gas (500 psi or less - ideally 200-300 psi or so) in those tanks?

If so, then you're cool, or at least as cool as you can be with any set of doubles (given the mass of the air you'll be carrying)
 
Genesis once bubbled...
First, as others have pointed out, its not the tank material - its the buoyancy characteristic.

Second, its ALL in the mass of the gas, to the 90th percentile anyway. Nothing more or less. Why, you ask? Here's why:

1. You MUST NOT ditch at depth. Anyone who dives knows this, or at least should know this. IF you ditch weight diving wet you ...<snip>...

Gotta give credit where it's due...good post.

I have dived double HP 100's in a two piece 6.5 mil wet suit and it works. They are more negative than AL tanks which meant I wore less weight but the fact is that I needed additional weight which means I could dive a balanced rig. Yes at depth the suit is far less buoyant and you don't need the weight but that's why I hate wet suits.
 
has a two piece 7 mil! That thing is some serious neoprene!

This is a lady - and she needs 20-some lbs of lead with an AL tank to sink that silly thing. Now at 100' she's got nearly NOTHING in terms of buoyancy from the suit - if she had a problem with her BC down there, she might have a problem.

I don't own a thick wetsuit. When it got cold enough for me to be uncomfortable in my 3 mil with a 3 mil hooded vest under it, I bought a drysuit. I think it was the right choice - for me anyway.

Then again I hate being cold!
 
O-ring once bubbled...

Your post was dead on Braunbehrens... it isn't the message, it is the delivery. You guys undo years of work by some people on this board to get the message out by coming here and trashing people like this is quest or techdiver.

I'll stay out of it, but I can't stand the attitudes...that is what has to stop or people turn it off immediately, IMHO..

We already have access to MHK and Sherwood on this forum...we really don't need the legions of sockpuppets..

I think it goes beyon that. The guy says in his profile that his interests are "slamming strokes". He didn't say anything about diving just slamming strokes. He doesn't mean well at all, IMO, he's just here to slam strokes.

I'm going back to work now on my no-mount rig complete with helmet, head mounted lights, steel tanks , wet suit, giant wrist slate, computer and delux model tank banger. Then I'm going to lay a bunch of line in a cave where this punk can't go because nobody is there to show him how.
 

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