Steel tank Wetsuit question

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in the main to divers on some form of Nitrox (air, EANx, etc).

Trimix is much lighter. Even 30/30 is lighter enough (by roughly 60%!) to make this much less of an issue. Hypoxic mix (more He) is even lighter, to the point that the shift of the gas mass is almost inconsequential.

But for most divers where wetsuits are going to be in use, simply due to depth and water temperature at that depth issues (it gets colder as you go deeper), you will likely be on some form of Nitrox. SOME people (Kool-Aid drinkers in particular) might be on 30/30 at depths beyond 100'.

Nitrogen and Oxygen are relatively close in molecular weight; they are "neighbors" on the periodic chart, and both are diatomic as molecules. He is monoatomic, and has a molecular weight of ~4. N2 and O2 have molecular weights of ~28 and ~32, respectively.

So if you have a mix that is made up of 30% Helium, the Helium part weighs only 14% as much as an equivalent amount of N2 would! That's a HUGE difference.

Effectively, 30/30 has a mass of only 41% that of 30% Nitrox!

So if you have 18 lbs of EANx30 in a set of HP120 doubles (about right) if that gas was 30/30 Trimix you'd have 7.5lbs of gas in the tanks! That's a biiiig difference - probably enough of a difference that swimming up your full tanks is not going to be much of an issue, assuming you are weighted properly on the surface.

For higher He content Trimix, the gas is even lighter of course.

So, the entire issue of finding yourself at the bottom with a holed BC and unable to swim up the mass of your gas, assuming you have properly weighted yourself at the surface for your dive, is likely to only be a factor if you are diving a Nitrox (Nitrogen and Oxygen only) mix of some description. And it is precisely under these conditions that you would consider potentially venting some of the "extra", quite-heavy, gas in order to be able to swim up your rig.

If you are diving a Trimix or Heliox gas, it is extremely unlikely that the mass of the gas is a factor in the trouble you find yourself in - which implies that absent being stupid about your weighting in the first place, you should not have a problem with 'Mix in this regard.

As for freezing a reg, this concept (ditching gas as opposed to weight) is a self-rescue option to cover a holed BC where you have no secondary buoyancy option. This implies you're diving wet, as if you're diving DRY you use the drysuit as a BC to get off the bottom.

I doubt you're going to be doing that in water cold enough to freeze a reg on you if you were to vent the gas.
 
Genesis once bubbled...

Now, you can drop the 10lbs of lead. But if you do, when you rise up you had better hope you haven't breathed more than 8lbs of that gas, because if you have, you're not stopping on the way up. That's not acceptable.

So, you get down there, have this problem, why not vent 10lbs of GAS? You still have more than 1/3rd of your gas.

Dude, think about it.

In one scenario, you are dumping 10 pounds of lead. Instantly.

In the other, you are faffing around, perhaps having to swap to your bungied reg so you can bubble away from your body etc Spending considerable time venting an unknown (how good are your maths at 120 ft, while stressed) weight of gas.
Anyway, by chance you dump exactly the 10 lbs you were aiming for.

IN EACH CASE YOU HAVE DUMPED THE SAME AMOUNT OF WEIGHT!

Each scenario puts you at exactly the same boyancy - so the idea that dumping air is better just does not make any sense.

When underwater, air is much more valuable to me than lead...

BTW - I do think you have a valid point - if I had no lead to dump, then dumping air mass is an option.

Mike
 
One scenario unbalances my rig, which, since I now intend to ascend following the problem, could lead me to have an uncontrolled ascent.

The second does not unbalance my rig.

Do I need to dump "instantly"? That depends on whether there is a hard bottom under me, doesn't it? If there is, where's the fire?

Second, why do I need to be precise? The point is to be able to swim up the rig - its not to dump "exactly" 10lbs.
 
Dragging this back on subject yet one more time.

Someone mentioned that the wetsuit rule should only apply to the amount of gas, not to the material of the tanks.

The material of the tanks is important, in so far that steel tanks are usually much heavier than al tanks. The result is that with steel tanks you won't have a lot of ditchable weight, instead using the tanks weight. This is the danger and the origin of the rule.

Just wanted to clarify this.

Genesis, do yourself a favor and forget that class. If you really like that instructor, ask her out for dinner ;-)
 
I rarely dive with aluminium, preferring my steel HP 120 tank for that extra margin on really long dives... and doubt I'll wear a dry suit until I enter the waters off Antarctica!

As an underwater videographer, I prefer the weight advantage of my steel tank since I need to be stable on the bottom when filming.

Dr. Bill
 
Genesis once bubbled...
One scenario unbalances my rig, which, since I now intend to ascend following the problem, could lead me to have an uncontrolled ascent.


I can't leave it at this... I want to, but it annoys me too much.

Genesis
I'm sorry, but you are wrong.
If you dump 10 lbs of weight, it doesn't matter where it comes from, it changes your boyancy by the same amount*

If you have 18 lbs of weight of air, and dump 10 lbs of weightbelt, it WILL NOT cause an uncontrolled ascent, any more than dumping 10 lbs of air will.

BOTH scenarios change your boyancy by EXACTLY the same amount - so one cannot be more dangerous than the other.

I'm not trying to argue here, just trying to explain.

Balanced diver is neutral with no air.
Add 18 lbs of air = 18 lbs negative
Drop 10 lbs (either air or weightbelt) = 8lbs negative.

It's that simple.

* for the pedantic, dropping a 10 pound weightbelt actually changes boyancy by 10 lbs minus the weight of the volume of water the weightbelt displaces.

Note: there will be some small affect on a divers _trim_ through either dumping air or lead. However, you will be swimming upwards - vertically - so it doesn't matter at all.

Se7en
 
Genesis once bubbled...
Think outside the box folks. The 'one true way" mantra is BROKEN in these situations. You must ditch SOMETHING to swim the rig up, but why would you ditch something that will make you inescapably buoyant once you begin that ascent? That's STUPID! Instead, ditch something that you intended to get rid of during the dive ANYWAY, and that will NOT impact the balance of your rig.

Either one makes you 10 pounds more positive. They both have the exact same effect.

Se7en is right...
 
Genesis
I'm sorry, but you are wrong.
If you dump 10 lbs of weight, it doesn't matter where it comes from, it changes your boyancy by the same amount*

If you have 18 lbs of weight of air, and dump 10 lbs of weightbelt, it WILL NOT cause an uncontrolled ascent, any more than dumping 10 lbs of air will.

BOTH scenarios change your boyancy by EXACTLY the same amount - so one cannot be more dangerous than the other.

Sorry, but no.

Everything except gas on your rig is static mass and static buoyancy. (Your exposure protection may change buoyancy based on depth, but it does NOT change based on dive TIME.)

Your GAS, however, is a DYNAMIC mass (assuming you're diving open circuit; for a rebreather it is a MUCH smaller factor, almost to the point of being able to ignore it.)

That is, it changes based on TIME underwater, as it is consumed by the diver. As you progress in dive TIME, you become less negative by the amount of the gas you inhale and then expell to the environment around you.

Your weighting, if it is done properly, is computed for nearly empty tanks at the surface, allowing you, for ANY amount of gas massing more than you did your weighting with, and at ANY depth below the surface, to obtain neutral buoyancy through the use of the intentional airspace in your BC.

If you ditch STATIC mass, you permanently alter that relationship. There is now an amount of gas below which, and a depth above which, you CANNOT become neutral - you will be positively buoyant, and absent something to hold on to (like an anchor line) you are going to be on the surface, like it or not. That is dangerous.

The problem is that you do not know precisely where that line is once you ditch weight. If you ditch the presumed 10lbs discussed before, somewhere around the time your tanks reach half-empty you are no longer able to hold a 15' safety stop, even with a completely empty (or damaged) BC.

This is dangerous not only because it can happen, but because there is no way for you to know exactly where the "must not ascend above or breathe the tank below" line is once you have performed the ditch. In fact, you could conceivably find the "inflection point" at 60', and end up doing a rocket-like ascent from there, causing yourself injury or worse.

I lost a weight belt once last fall at the bottom. I was very fortunate to recognize what had happened immediately and was able to fin down HARD and grab the errant belt, dump the air from my BC, and put it back on. Had I gotten 10-20' up in the water column before I figured it out, I would have been royally screwed. My lesson was learned - I wear my belt UNDER my crotch strap now! That sucker ain't coming off unless I WANT it off (I can still ditch it with the BP on, but it requires a VERY deliberate act to get it off now!)

The essence of my argument is that any use of a ditch of any static mass below the surface is foolish at best and potentially dangerous to your life and health at worst. It is a dive plan decision that is both unnecessary and flatly unacceptable.

The use of ditching gas is an option that I'd argue most divers have not even thought about - yet, it is a perfectly valid option if the water temperature permits, you have a hard bottom (that is, you don't need to stop a descent RIGHT NOW, as you've got a hard bottom under you), you WILL be able to swim up the kit once you ditch some (but not all, obviously!) of your breathing medium AND you do not have a redundant means of buoyancy with you.

IF you dive a configuration that does not permit you to swim up in a "fully loaded" state if you have a BC failure, you need to either (1) be able and willing to ditch some of your breathing gas, if it is of sufficient mass to matter and you can do so without freezing a reg, etc, or (2) carry some form of redundant buoyancy with you such that you will never find yourself with that hobson's choice.

Ditching static mass is simply not an option you should be willing to consider as an "out".
 
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