Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

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Would you agree that raising the bar would help

What bar? Standards? Standards are fine, individual instructors not following standards is the problem.

The biggest problem I see is when instructors do not make students meet the standard for "mastery learning".

mastery learning is defined as performing the skill so it meets the stated performance requirements in a reasonably comfortable, fluid, repeatable manner as would be expected of a diver at that certification level.”
 
What bar? Standards? Standards are fine, individual instructors not following standards is the problem.

The biggest problem I see is when instructors do not make students meet the standard for "mastery learning".

mastery learning is defined as performing the skill so it meets the stated performance requirements in a reasonably comfortable, fluid, repeatable manner as would be expected of a diver at that certification level.”

Oh that's easy. And I'm stating all of this for most, but not all, WRSTC members, not just PADI, as I see this as an industry problem, not a PADI one. They are no more guilty than the others in this regard.

For one, I'd like to see a change for a greater focus on weight distribution in IDCs so that students are effortlessly trimmed. I guarantee that the deceased wasn't trimmed at all.

Second, all instructor candidates must perform all confined and open water skills neutrally buoyant and trimmed first in confined water and then open water. So yes, underwater scuba kit removal and replacement in open water. Instructors who have their IDCs in warm water locations must have an IE in cold water as they are so incredibly different.

Third, address the reason why standards are not followed. When i first started teaching opem water students in wetsuits, I admittely made them suffer with pre dive weight checks. I failed to manage their comfort to get all skills completed at an appropriate level. I'll admit my retention rate was poor at this time (but better than when I taught on the knees).

If you observe open water courses in my area, you'll see basically no one doing pre dive weight checks. Now you can say "they are violating standards", which is true. But it doesn't address the conditions (cold water) that cause this standards violation.

When i figured out other methods where I'd be off by a maximum of two lbs (checked at the end of OW1 at the safety stop with emptying the BCD - I've blogged about this to share with others), my retention rate shot up. Yes, I violated standards by skipping the pre-dive weight check, but I had a fairly close weight determination before my students went into the water. This was confirmed by the fact that I never took off more than two pounds off a student after OW1.

So to make a long story short, figure out how to teach approximate weighting for cold water divers before putting students in the water.

Fourth, ban students from being placed on their knees for the reasons that it ingrains bad habits initially, and in the case of cold water, they get cold faster. The more active they are, the warmer they will remain.

As a final statement, I would have to be completely out of my mind to think that any of these, other than instructor candidates having to perform skills NB/T - I just won't live long enough to see it most likely, will ever happen.

The thing is, none of this is all that hard.

You believe the standards are fine. I don't for most agencies.

But there's a thread on this already that is currently active (something like "if you could change one thing..."
 
Here is another way of thinking about it:

How can you both guarantee excellent instruction and publish an expelled instructor list at the same time? If you could guarantee great instruction, there would be no expelled instructors.
You cannot guarantee excellent instruction unless you are giving it yourself. Your ‘best’ instructor has some personal catastrophe and shows up for class drunk or on meth. You can greatly reduce the chance of someone getting inferior instruction via a strong training program, excellent instructor examiners with high standards and an aggressive QC program that looks for instructors that are not providing the kind of instruction you want. If you require periodic recert by your IEs that will further reduce it.

But it will never go to zero.
 
Here is another way of thinking about it:

How can you both guarantee excellent instruction and publish an expelled instructor list at the same time? If you could guarantee great instruction, there would be no expelled instructors.

I suppose it's impossible for anyone to guarantee anything, but if your goal is excellence rather then perfection, then I'd expect there to be a list of expelled people because that's part of how your organization gets to only having the best.
 
So, here is a former English teacher's reading of this.

1. Nowhere does Hornsby say that PADI does not have a Quality Assurance program. Wookie is the only person saying that.

2. In #17, he says that PADI has never represented that their logos (etc.) serve as a guarantee or assurance by PADI Worldwide of any PADI member’s competence or adherence to PADI safety standards, and PADI Worldwide has never represented to anyone that they are
designed to serve as such a guarantee or assurance
by PADI Worldwide. Having a quality assurance program provides no guarantees that the instructor you meet on the weekend will perform as expected.

3. In #18 he says, "PADI Worldwide has never claimed or represented to divers that PADI Worldwide has a comprehensive monitoring system

None of that language says they do not have a quality assurance program. They do have a quality assurance program, but the existence of the program does not guarantee that the instructor or program you encounter will meet its standards. They do check up on instructors through this quality assurance program, and instructors who do not meet standards are dealt with, but this does not constitute a comprehensive monitoring system. A comprehensive monitoring system would, as the original complaint seems to call for, require them monitor dive shop activities routinely to make sure they are always in compliance. They do not do that.

Yet on their website they boldly claim that

How is PADI Different?

Education
- The PADI System of diver education is the most instructionally solid system in diving. PADI courses are designed to make learning enjoyable and worthwhile. Under the guidance of your professional PADI Instructor, you gain confidence while mastering important safety concepts and skills. PADI Instructors are trained and held to diving’s highest standards, backed up by a solid, proactive quality management system.

Educational Standards – All PADI programs, from entry-level through scuba instructor training, fall under strict educational standards monitored for worldwide consistency and quality.
 
The most confusing thing about all of this is that it is only a civil suit.

At what point does an event like this rise to the manslaughter/negligent homicide level? Has that ever happened?
 
Prior to you reiterating that earlier in the thread, @shoredivr had already given that information with photos of the 3 relevant fittings.

You quoted part of #178 of the Complaint in my post. That item # is alleging that there was compatible equipment available in Snow's vehicle.

It’s post #410 that has the male inflator nipple information with photos. I don’t know how to link to the specific post


Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park
 
The most confusing thing about all of this is that it is only a civil suit.

At what point does an event like this rise to the manslaughter/negligent homicide level? Has that ever happened?
Discussed earlier in the thread starting at post 369 on page 37. TL;DR version, it happens rarely, and probably hasn't happened (yet?) in this case because the coroner concluded it was an accident.
 
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Discussed earlier in the thread starting at post 369 on page 37. TL;DR version, it happens rarely, and probably hasn't happened (yet?) in this case because the coroner concluded it was an accident.

Thanks, I got to this thread late and didn't read all the posts.
 
What a horrible situation, I can’t call it an accident because that dive center was so incredibly negligent. However I think the plaintiff went too far in suing the person selling the dry suit. SP didn’t ask me for my cert card whenI bought the bcd and reg set. People on this board sell gear and I bet the sell sellers don’t normally ask for cert cards.

Not too long ago a new met this board posted about spending $10k on diving gear for him and his wife who are not yet certified. He received lots of negative feedback yet no none said it was unsafe.
 

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