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Switching Certification Agencies

Discussion in 'Basic Scuba Discussions' started by OmarM, Dec 7, 2019.

  1. markmud

    markmud Self Reliant Diver--On All Dives. ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: South Lebanon, Ohio
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    1,180
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    Hi tursiops,

    I think you are taking his words way too seriously. But that is common for you (that wasn't meant to be snarky, just a fact).

    BSAC, PADI, SDI, et allia are properly classified as an NGO (non-governmental organization). They are glorified clubs. I was the president of a Building Industry Association and the Chairman of its PAC (political action committee). We were, in very loose terms, a club of like minded people. We lobbied for better laws, and worked with bureaucrats to streamline processes. To use Bigbella's loose terminology, we were a glorified club. The BIA was a 501 (c) 3; the PAC was not.

    I was the president and founding member of a water ski club that lobbied to keep our club assets on a public waterway. We were a 501 (c) 7 club for income tax purposes.

    We worked with the Sheriff, the County Board of Supervisors, and Bureau of Reclamation to obtain permits that benefitted club members and the general public at large. We maintained our club assets on a public waterway. We had codified rules that were part of our various contracts with the governmental agencies that regulated our use of their property.

    In conclusion, Bigbella used the word club loosely, but their are parallels that can be made to other clubs that exist.

    The most important aspect that proves this point is that these NGOs have no police power whatsoever. In that sense, they are straw dogs.

    Members voluntarily follow their rules.

    cheers,
    markm
     
    The Chairman and Bigbella like this.
  2. The Chairman

    The Chairman Chairman of the Board

    # of Dives: I just don't log dives
    Location: Cave Country!
    56,292
    24,044
    113
    Great info, Mark.

    There have been any number of diving clubs started to mock the agencies. UDIE, DIMY and more all try and minimize the impact the agencies have on us. However, when it comes to legal decisions, the agency standards you certified under will be the ones used in court. Like 'em or hate 'em, they are our attempt to self regulate our sport.

    In my mind, certs should be viewed as licenses to learn. You don't pay for a cert: you pay for an education. While I don't believe that any agency is inherently superior, I do believe that there are awesome instructors out there. You pick the instructor and let them choose the agency.
     
    Bigbella likes this.
  3. tursiops

    tursiops Marine Scientist and Master Instructor ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 2,500 - 4,999
    Location: U.S. East Coast
    8,315
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    Absolutely not. PADI and SDI are for-profit corporations. NONE of the training agencies are NGOs.

    upload_2019-12-8_13-29-17.png

    Your experience in lobbying for your "club" is irrelevant.
    You say I take words too seriously. What is the alternative? Believe nothing? Say nothing?
    OK, I do not take your post as being serious. How could I? It is quite wrong.
     
    markmud likes this.
  4. Bigbella

    Bigbella Barracuda

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: San Francisco
    379
    263
    63
    Alas, but they still laughed at my old disintegrating YMCA c-card, and as an agency, until I towed one of those fat f**ks back to the boat . . .
     
  5. The Chairman

    The Chairman Chairman of the Board

    # of Dives: I just don't log dives
    Location: Cave Country!
    56,292
    24,044
    113
    Wow, such animosity. I might be built like a manatee, but I'm usually the one doing the towing. I should be used to the fat shaming and bigotry among some divers, but I still find it a bit repugnant. Incredible, but I've never seen a skinny marine mammal.
     
    shoredivr and Bigbella like this.
  6. The Chairman

    The Chairman Chairman of the Board

    # of Dives: I just don't log dives
    Location: Cave Country!
    56,292
    24,044
    113
    I would disagree with you... Here is another, more inclusive, definition that allows "for profits" as NGOs.

    Nongovernmental organization (NGO), voluntary group of individuals or organizations, usually not affiliated with any government, that is formed to provide services or to advocate a public policy. Although some NGOs are for-profit corporations, the vast majority are nonprofit

    Here is the link What is an Nongovernmental Organization?

    They affect us a lot. Try getting a tank filled without its yearly "VIS". As I pointed out earlier, their standards are often used in litigation.
     
    EireDiver606 likes this.
  7. markmud

    markmud Self Reliant Diver--On All Dives. ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: South Lebanon, Ohio
    1,200
    1,180
    113
    Ok Tursiops,

    You got me on the NGO thing, I forgot that these associations are for money grubbing (not that there is anything wrong with money grubbing). (Oh Snap: Edit to post to reflect post #26 Switching Certification Agencies, above)

    I disagree with your assessment. I paralleled post #14 in comparing BSAC to what I did in a previous life. You could not see the parallel there?

    Hi Pete,

    Self regulate is the key term.
    How will those standards be used against me in court. I don't have a binding contract with any agency. You as an instructor do, I don't. If a lawyer were trying to prove civil negligence against me, he would use those standards to buttress his case in law, but he/she could not use those standards against me, per se. Those standards are not codified law. PADI's standards are not binding on me because we don't share a binding contract together.

    A prosecuting attorney can not have me arrested for violating PADI's rules. To iterate, they are not law.

    As an exercise, extend out the acronym PADI.

    association
    [əˌsōsēˈāSH(ə)n, əˌsōSHēˈāSH(ə)n]
    NOUN
    1. (often in names) a group of people organized for a joint purpose.
      "the National Association of Broadcasters"
      synonyms:
      alliance · consortium · coalition · union · league · guild · syndicate · corporation · federation · confederation · confederacy · conglomerate · cooperative · partnership · amalgamation · merger · body · group · ring · circle · trust · company · organization · affiliation · society · club · band · brotherhood · fraternity · sorority · clique · cartel · consociation · sodality
     
  8. The Chairman

    The Chairman Chairman of the Board

    # of Dives: I just don't log dives
    Location: Cave Country!
    56,292
    24,044
    113
    They will used by your survivors if you ever perish while diving.

    There are no Scuba police checking your depth or anything else. Usually the courts only get involved when a professional is being sued or violates a standard resulting in an injury or death. My point was that the courts see them as being important, so maybe we should as well.

    PADI and other agencies will often lobby various governments in order to benefit divers, dive ops as well as themselves.
     
    markmud likes this.
  9. Angelo Farina

    Angelo Farina Marine Scientist

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Parma, ITALY
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    The two historical scuba diving agencies here in Italy are not-profit, named FIPS and FIAS. Both affiliated with CMAS.
    FIPS started activity in 1956 and developed a quite advanced training method, mostly based on using the ARO rebreather (CC, pure oxygen).
    Instructors are unpaid volunteers, and most of the activity is organized by local clubs.
    In the eighties, american agencies (PADI first, then Naui, then SSI, etc.) arrived here in Italy and started working for money, selling courses and certifications to be obtained in a weekend, instead of the typical FIPS course, lasting 9 months and training students almost as they were Navy Seals...
    The success of American agencies was immediate and enlarged significantly the number of people practising scuba diving.
    This made something to change also inside the historical not-profit organizations.
    First of all, it was accepted that instructors could be paid, for example when working in resorts or diving centers. And also the military-style training method was simplified noticeably, remaining much more challenging than a typical PADI OW course, but now suitable for everyone, and not just for supermen....
    Still today there are differences between the didactic approach of these not-profit organizations and the typical money-centered approach of American-style agencies. But not in the technical contents, the difference is mostly in the human relationship between instructors and students.
    There is a strong difference between the relationship occurring between one "payer" and one "servant", on one side, and a volunteer instructor who is gifting you of his time and experience, on the other side.
     
    Bigbella, Efka76 and markmud like this.
  10. Bigbella

    Bigbella Barracuda

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: San Francisco
    379
    263
    63
    Heh, heh, heh, all in jest. I wouldn't have mentioned the guy's considerable girth, rotundity, gravitational pull, mass homeothermy, capsizing threat, or forty pounds of lead weight that he carried around his equator, which I dragged, were it not for his lengthy alcohol-fueled dismissive attitude toward my poor pitiful tri-folded c-card from the Ford administration, and his proud collection of five or six, with his toothy pictures, in shiny plastic sleeves . . .
     

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