Teach Different. Dive Different.

[The Chairman]

You're talking about just the open water check out dives, right?

Yes.

Not seeing the standard for stop and turn.

It's in the manual multiple times. From the Confined Water suggested sequence: "Swim, stop and turn while neutral." On every OW dive it includes "Dive while maintaining neutral buoyancy." as a skill. Not just one: ALL of them. You won't find a "Thou shalt not kneel!" in there, but the OW manual for the instructors hits on being neutral time and time again. Personally, I think that's important, but you don't seem to.

 

[SeaCobra]

If you wanna have some fun, crack open an old Jeppesen Sport Diving manual, I used one for my first class in 1984, and you will find that neutral buoyancy and the concept of proper trim was taught way back then in the dark ages. It is nothing new, one agency or another did not invent it.

And I do agree, teaching the skill while being supported is fine as long as quickly progressing to the next level. Being able to do all the skills in a comfortable manner, while demonstrating buoyancy control is the goal.

I do not have my NAUI S&P's open in front of me, but if memory serves 5 open water dives are required for successful completion of the Scuba Diver course. A dive is defined as being a minimum of 20 minutes in duration. So, 5 dives X 20 minutes each = 100 minutes of dive time (over 2 days). By my viewpoint that would exceed NASE standards. It also says that if a dive falls short on the required dive, that time must be made up on another dive or additional dive(s) can be added.

 

[japan-diver]

Yes. It's in the manual multiple times. From the Confined Water suggested sequence: "Swim, stop and turn while neutral." On every OW dive it includes "Dive while maintaining neutral buoyancy." as a skill. Not just one: ALL of them. You won't find a "Thou shalt not kneel!" in there, but the OW manual for the instructors hits on being neutral time and time again. Personally, I think that's important, but you don't seem to.

Actually I have been teaching my students w/o kneeling for some time now (over 10 years) and my instructor candidates must demonstrate all their teaching without having their students kneel. I believe that achieving neutral buoyancy and establishing control from the start is very important to teaching diving- as from your statements so do you. What I am trying to point out is that NASE do not to me seem like an improvement- although they suggest that instructors do not have the students kneel the way the standards are written (at least in the link from the above post) they do not seem to eliminate the possibility of an instructor teaching with the students kneeling.
From what I see other than the 3 dive minimum (which in my opinion is a lowering of standards- as I am already required to have 100 minutes of water time but over 5 dives)- I do not see a large difference or improvement to what is already out there in established agencies.

I also believe that the open water dives should be spread over at least 2 days as this allows for better retention for the student so I see allowing the students to complete in one day a huge drop in standards and quality. Although the recommendation is two days it is not required. As stated earlier good instructors will always exceed standards - the good instructors are not the one we have to worry about - in an agency there will be instructors that are going to do the bare minimum by standards and IMHO the allowing of completion of OW training (diving portion) in one day is a significant drop in standards and will effect the quality of students being certified.
I believe the stress on buoyancy control in NASE is a good thing but the standards I have seen (I have only seen the link posted above) do not seem to enforce this belief any more than ones I have seen for NAUI- PADI or others. Is there a more complete link somewhere? I will also try to find some time and stop by the NASE booth at DEMA to get a more complete view of things.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

If you wanna have some fun, crack open an old Jeppesen Sport Diving manual, I used one for my first class in 1984, and you will find that neutral buoyancy and the concept of proper trim was taught way back then in the dark ages. It is nothing new, one agency or another did not invent it.

And I do agree, teaching the skill while being supported is fine as long as quickly progressing to the next level. Being able to do all the skills in a comfortable manner, while demonstrating buoyancy control is the goal.

I do not have my NAUI S&P's open in front of me, but if memory serves 5 open water dives are required for successful completion of the Scuba Diver course. A dive is defined as being a minimum of 20 minutes in duration. So, 5 dives X 20 minutes each = 100 minutes of dive time (over 2 days). By my viewpoint that would exceed NASE standards. It also says that if a dive falls short on the required dive, that time must be made up on another dive or additional dive(s) can be added.

Jeppeson's also states that "the frog kick is not commonly used in diving, but is good for providing a restful variation on long surface swims" ... (page 18). I have used both their Open Water Sport Diver and Advanced Sport Diver books as reference material for years. Some of it's useful, some less so.

NAUI's S&P specifies 5 checkout dives ... one of which may be a free-diving exercise. They don't specify in-water training in terms of minutes, but do specify a minimum of 10 in-water training hours, which includes both pool and checkout time.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Hawkwood]

....
NAUI's S&P specifies 5 checkout dives ... one of which may be a free-diving exercise. They don't specify in-water training in terms of minutes, but do specify a minimum of 10 in-water training hours, which includes both pool and checkout time.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

PADI recommends 31 hours in total (that's a minimum by the way) for Open Water Certification.

There are 4 OW check out dives, with an optional skin dive recommended. As to time in water for the OW checkout dives the requirements for each dive is to breath at least 50 cf (1400 L) or remain submerged for at least 20 minutes.

 

[NASEHQ]

What a great thread and discussion! It is great there are so many active professionals who care enough; we need more of you all out there getting scuba diving as the "coolest" activity and the next generation.

I'd like to simply explain two items here as many people here (probably most are not NASE WW instructors). I have been an active instructor since 1988, and currently hold a few current "other agency" ratings including PADI. I also worked as a territory rep for NAUI until a few years ago. We have an awesome staff that is made up of the widest array of active instructors & professionals. They come from many agencies, diving disciplines (rec, tec, cave, commercial, military, industry pro, mfgs, etc.) and have a shared passion about diving and educating divers. This influences our perspective on how we think, and what we are trying to accomplish.

First off, there are great instructors in every agency and conversely there are less than great instructors. Even we have been "cleaning house" since we took over two years ago. For those instructors who are exceeding and already doing some of the things we require: good for you and keep it up. Our goal is to ensure our instructor members are doing this.

Background

We re-wrote our standards based on our collective experience, common sense and above all with the belief that our job as dive instructors is simple "teach student to have FUN, while diving safely". This is accomplished by eliminating the "certified non-diver" dilemma going on now. The time spent with new students is getting less and less due to all sorts of reasons; we are facing time pressures in this new era of our industry. (Another topic we can discuss for weeks).

Secondly, our goal is to be different, the last thing the industry needs is another "me too" scuba training agency. So, with that in mind these are the key differences that a casual glance of our standards will not reveal:

Competency - Students must be able to complete each skill and have ability (we asses abilities, teach skills). We define the criteria for assessment as: when requested, repeatedly, without undue stress, without significant error. That is our standard, simple.

Common Sense skills - Competency on the fundamentals and allow ample time to ensure each student has the abilities required at that level. We eliminated as required skills the following "snorkel to regulator exchange, ESA, compass NAV, snorkeling” but increased the performance level of required fundamental skills. At instructors discretion, they may add these (exception is ESA) if they wish, empower the instructor to teach as they deem necessary.
NASE requires a minimum of 3 dives with no less than 100 minutes of ABT. Why? Well, if you teach competency (as we do with commercial diver training) it’s not a matter of doing a skill repeatedly, its having the ability to do the skill in a real world environment that is the basis for our assessment dives. If you have a student in a private course and they "just get it" well, you can see why three dives during a full day makes sense. If you have a "soup sandwich" well, they obviously have not attained competency so by standards you cannot certify them regardless of dives!

A required four dives for open water (3 day one and 1 day two) does not make a better diver. (If 100 minutes of ABT over 3 dives drops quality of the student, look in the mirror - that is the guilty party)
Again, our job at NASE WW is to provide its customers a set of standards, materials and suggested methods to enable you to do your job as an educator. If an instructor chooses to use the set standard a maximum ability, then shame on them.
I've spent years at the god ole rock quarry up north teaching and also observing many classes do their OW cert dives. What really stood out to me was most of that time in-water was spent hanging on a descent lines above the platform or kneeling on it while watching the other student "do" skills.
Dive four compass runs, where do most of the students end up? They ended up at surface or as a mud puppy on the bottom. Why? The instructor was too busy checking off skills because god forbid they forgot to do snorkel to regulator exchange, or another “skill” and able to teach buoyancy throughout the entire dive! (Anyone have a portable platform?)

Our system reduces the burden of too many "skills" and allows instructor more time underwater to develop the fundamental skills that make divers better and excited for scuba diving. It helps to make teaching scuba fun and a rewarding experience.

NASE is different. We are not for everyone; we are an option for those looking to simply "teach different".

We listen to all dive professionals because we are active instructors ourselves and believe in continual improvement. We are by no means "the" experts, but have a collective experience and a passion to teach the world to dive!

If you will be at DEMA, please stop by booth 464. We will be happy to discuss exactly who we are and how our system can help your business.

 

[boulderjohn]

Why do you not allow ESA?

 

[chillyinCanada]

No ESA??

 

[mselenaous]

Emergency swimming ascents are taught and assessed only in confined water, usually horizontally.
In open water it sets a poor example by the instructor's repeated actions that bounce diving is acceptable when in reality it is very unsafe. How many instructors have recurring ear issues from repeated CESAs?
Instead teach and stress emergency prevention with safe controlled ascents on every dive, good gas management skills, frequent PSI monitoring, and good buddy skills including dive planning & execution, communication, & s-drills.

Happy Diving!
ELENA

 

[The Chairman]

Yeah, I remember my instructor constantly making statements like: "Don't dive like me: I'm the exception!" Nothing teaches our students better than our personal example. Monkey see: Monkey do! If you constantly demonstrate perfect trim and buoyancy, then they will too. If you kneel all over the place, make repeated bounce dives and act like the rules don't apply to you, then they'll imitate that too. Maybe not in front of you, where you'll get to straighten them out, but they'll want to dive JUST LIKE their instructor so they'll do all those crazy things too. They'll copy all of your habits, good and bad alike. I remember seeing one of my AOW students doing a "Buddha pose" during one of our dives. His OW was with Elena, so I KNOW he didn't get that from her. When I did ask on the surface, his confessed: "I read it in a magazine!" Wow. One article destroyed a lot of what Elena and I had been working on with him. Did I set him straight? Gently. He was only imitating something that he saw as a good example. It's important that we always demonstrate how we want our students diving and that includes during the class.