Ten Foot/3 Metre Stops in Heavy Swells?

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How do you set the spool for being a jon line? Just like you would for a jump in a cave?

I'm imagining it's something like this: tie into the anchor line, let some line out, and hold onto the spool?
 
How do you set the spool for being a jon line? Just like you would for a jump in a cave?
How the F$%^ would I know...I'm not cave certified. :wink:

I'm imagining it's something like this: tie into the anchor line, let some line out, and hold onto the spool?
The way I was shown was to loop the line around the anchor line and then use the double ender to hold the line to the spool and clips to the crotch d-ring.
 
Ok you win. The DIR answer to diving in current anywhere where the viz on the surface may go to pot during the dive and or where you may be up current of a shipping lane is to just call the dive at the dock and not dive.

You are trying to assign a specific answer to cover a broad range of possibilities (how much?, how fast?, how long? how far?). So no, that is not the DIR answer.

That would explain why all the Atlantic wreck divers from about Virginia Beach northward are all non DIR divers. Which is of course stupid to even say.

You are defeating your own argument that DIR can be applied anywhere.

Anywhere, not anytime.

My brand of DIR can handle those conditions, so what exactly is wrong with yours?

Your brand of DIR assumes that you will always somehow be attached to the wreck on ascent. Your brand assumes that nothing will ever go wrong to change that. My brand recognizes that a floating deco is always a possibility.

Your brand can handle those conditions only if things go right. My brand thinks beyond that.
 
As I stated in an earlier post, the description of the forum is to "find out" about DIR. That means discussing the merits of the systems and any related benefits and drawbacks.

I posted the original question to find out the DIR approach to no-deco safety stops in 4-6 foot waves. I have already received a number of useful answers to this question. As to the relative drawbacks of a DIR approach vs. a non-DIR approach...

It is not for me to say what this forum is for, however I do note that we have forums like the Advanced forum and the Hogarthian forum where people discuss DIR and non-DIR approaches side-by-side. For example, the HOG forum has a long thread debating whether to wrap a long hose around the neck or stow it with a bungee.

So, I am not saying you are wrong about the purpose of this forum. I'm new here and I don't know. But I do know that for my personal purposes, I am ok with this form simply explaining DIR, while our other forums debate it.
 
Who said that it was better? or that it needed to be better? Its just different.

You can take a specialized piece of equipment to do a task or something that can do a few things.

It might not be better than the specialized piece of equipment...but if it does the trick. One less thing to worry about.

6 of one...half a dozen of the other. Neither is wrong...just different.


I can't answer for everyone...plus they are strokes with cool gear anyways. :wink:

Ah, now we are getting somewhere. :) Now this makes sense.
 
Your brand of DIR assumes that you will always somehow be attached to the wreck on ascent. Your brand assumes that nothing will ever go wrong to change that. My brand recognizes that a floating deco is always a possibility.

Your brand can handle those conditions only if things go right. My brand thinks beyond that.
I am not assuming that the deco can always be done tied in to the wreck. It is entirely possible on some wrecks and with big swells that even a heavy up line could become cut or broken (although proper placement will prevent that 99% of the time.) In that case, I still have the option of doing a floating deco.

What I am recognizing and advocating is that there are some entirely divable places where it is very unhealthy to do floating deco and where the boat captain, due to his or her vast experience on those same wrecks will prefer to stay tied into the wreck until everyone is back aboard or, in the event he or she has to pull the hook for what ever reason, that you still be tied into the wreck so he or she can find you rather than chasing divers all over the north Atlantic in large swells, fickle currents and potentially poor visibility. People have been lost for hours and even died due to floating deco under those conditions.

A good example would be where one or two teams were on the line doing deco when the hook pulls loose with one or two teams still on the wreck. The teams on the line do drift deco with the boat. The other teams discover the hook is gone, shoot a bag and do their deco on the wreck. When the deco is complete the divers on the line reboard the boat, the boat returns to the numbers for the wreck and recovers the other divers still tied in there. The boat can find them even if surface visibility is down to near zero in fog as they are still on the GPS numbers that the boat can return to every time.

The much less desirable alternative is for the divers who start deco after the hook came loose to do drifting deco. With any difference in wind and current direction (very common), the two drifting parties (boat and drifting divers) will drift at different rates and in different directions and those rates and directions potentially change as the deco'ing divers ascend through different layers in the water column. What is more, the two teams left on the wreck may start deco at different times and with different bottom times and schedules. That leaves the boat potentially searching for 2 lost groups of divers spread over several square miles of ocean in potentially no visibility and in rough seas.

With those choices - screw whatever GUE says - I know exactly where I want to be doing my deco because the boat is going to know exactly where my pink water logged butt is gonna be when I am done. Very nice when the water temps is also in the 50's. If I have to do a drifting deco it is because something bad happened and I am on a contingency plan - it is not my first choice, but rather the last option.

Now, I could use a spool to hang on the line and be compliant with the right wing version of "DIR", but that leaves me hanging on a piece of 24, 36 or 48 line being rubbed up and down an anchor line encrusted with all kinds of salt water nasties. The odds if it lasting 60 minutes of deco in rough seas and a 2 or 3 kt current is pretty minimal. A Jon line made from 1" tubular webbing will survive that treatment all season.

I agree with Jeff G (and I find I tend to agree with Jeff more often than not) that all things considered, it makes more sense to carry one piece of equipment that will get the job done. But that is premised on that one piece of equipment getting that critical job done right and when that is in doubt; it is time to bring out the specialized equipment.

So...with all that in mind, which one do you want to trust your life to - the do lots of things spool or the actually will get it done right Jon line? If a diver is choosing the spool under those circumstances, he or she is either an idiot, is excessively rule bound and inflexible, or has just not thought it through.

Alternatively, a diver can just cancel the dive at the dock and plan to not dive much at all if ever in what are very common north Atlantic conditions. Standing by your convictions in that case means eating the charter fee because the boat is still going to go. Weakening in your resolve and then relying on your spool on the other hand, means you come loose during deco and if you are lucky get picked up by a very irritated captain and crew who most likely will not take you out again or even let you off the boat for dive # 2. In the real world, if you have a brain and know how to use it you'll be using a Job Line when the situation calls for it and all the internet posturing and preaching about the merits of GUE and or your brand of DIR won't change that.

It frankly irritates me that the ultra right wing kool-aid drinking segment of what they narrowly define as "DIR" keeps trying to assert ownership to the whole DIR forum. Then they make it worse by whining when the more centered and balanced DIR divers who have the experience and wisdom to adapt non GUE approved equipment or techniques that really work in local conditions do not agree with their version of the party line.

That right wing element may want to consider asking for their very own GUE only forum or changing the name and sticky on this one if that is how they want to define "DIR". If you get it done, I promise I will NEVER post in it.
 
First of all, it's not John Line - it's Jon Line. The idea is clear but usual practice is bad - divers hanging to ancor line regardless the conditions. Not to mention different ways of clipping to harness or clipping to ancor line with Garvin hook or whatever.

How cool ...

Constant repeating of what you do and what works for you doesn't have anything with this forum's basic intention.

Perhaps you miss the point that I am describing how a particular tool may be used in various situations. I am not trying advocating its use in all situations.

Drift decompression is a very good system if you are in a situation where it can be used. This will mostly mean that :
1) The boat uses and has set procedures for drift decompression
2) All divers are set for drift decompression
3) There are not other limiting factors such as a shipping channel, boat traffic, sea or weather conditions that would limits its use or make its use worse then other procedures.

#1 and #2 are most easily used on small boats with less then 3 or 4 buddy teams. Once you get to larger boats where you may have more teams, independent divers, or teams/divers on much different dive profiles, you may not be able to direct the boats operation into a system that you want and drift decompression becomes much harder to use.

The rejection of a tool due to preconceived notions or ideology is nonproductive. Being able to adapt to various situations is what you really want to achieve.

A John (or Jon) Line is only a tool just as drift decompression is only a tool. Use the proper tool for the job at hand.
 
NOTE: from this forums rules sticky
NetDoc:
6) The answers in this forum are member's best attempts to answer questions within, and according the DIR diving philosophy. If you wish to give a non-DIR answer, please do not post it in this forum. If you do not wish your question to be limited to DIR answer, please ask it in another applicable forum.
 
First of all, I have to disagree with your perception DIR Practitioners subforum which implies that questions asked there are non-intelligent.

Point taken. My apologies.

Second, holding a line (hand or spool) can be sometimes neccesity - it's up to team to decide what to do on a given dive.

All the answeres were already given - the problem is that there's so much noise in the channel that's hard to distinguish between valid answers and other ones.

Regading jon line, there are several variations of same tool with different clips refering to same name. If you want to discuss particular type, define it and describe it and we can throw some pros and cons. We can discuss deployment and emergency procedures. There's no need to discuss about purpose - it's clear. We can discuss about situation but as I see more or less everything has been already covered.

When talking about spool and double-ender I guess we all know what we're talking about. And of course we can discuss and throw some pros and cons.

Well the first thing I would want to clear up is that hanging on the line w/ some sort of device (spool, etc.) is considered acceptable. There seems to be disagreement among the practitioners on that one.

Second, I would consider your basic jon line either the 6-8 ft of 1" webbing with two sewn loop ends or one sewn loop end and a gavin hook. I really don't see an appreciable difference in the two methods; there may be some minor pros/ cons but they both work just fine. As others have mentioned, clipping a spool with #24 or #36 off to an anchor line is Russian Roulette. In current, I know that a jon line is not going to break. Not the case with a spool.

In terms of deployment procedures, take a look at DA Aquamaster's post above. That about sums it up. Nadwidny claims that this approach only works when "things go right" and that could not be further from the truth. If you do drift deco away from an anchored boat, or get separated and some are left with the boat while the others drift, or if your scooter cuts out, you are now in a much more dangerous situation than anything DA outlines above.
 
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