"Term limits" on certifications

[DiveGolfSki]

I hope this was another ironic display of humor, because it conveyed my opinion providing a good hearty chuckle....

Why? You didn't know that there is such a bill in congress ... the BIGBRO bill?

 

[ChrisA]

I have a license to fly an airplane. It is issued once for life just like my PADI c-card the difference is that in order to fly I need three things

1) The license
2) Recent experiance, That is a certain number of take offs and landsing within the last 90 days
3) A valid medical certificate (good for up to a year)

Applying the airplane model to scuba would be straight forward.

About #2. If I lack recent experiance I then hire an instructor to go with me untill s/he signs me off as being compentent to fly again..

 

[MHK]

I have a license to fly an airplane. It is issued once for life just like my PADI c-card the difference is that in order to fly I need three things

1) The license
2) Recent experiance, That is a certain number of take offs and landsing within the last 90 days
3) A valid medical certificate (good for up to a year)

Applying the airplane model to scuba would be straight forward.

About #2. If I lack recent experiance I then hire an instructor to go with me untill s/he signs me off as being compentent to fly again..

We've incorporated much of the avaition teaching paradigm into the GUE teaching paradigm. Andrew Georgitisis, who helped put together much of GUE's programs, is also an instructor pilot trainer and admittedly used many aviation concepts when intergrating the classes. One ancilliary point worth noting is that the dive industry has allowed the "value" of the training to be so debased and the value placed on training to be so unimportant that it is in fact difficult at this point to re-establish the proper importance. No one questions the value of a pilots license, hence no out cry for "remote learning" or quicker, shorter classes. Whereas the value of a c-card at this point has such little significance that it's difficult to place a premium on education. That certainly isn't meant to suggest that flying a plane is as simple as diving, but the parellel applies to a certain extent irrespective.

Regards

 

[rstone]

1) The license
2) Recent experiance, That is a certain number of take offs and landsing within the last 90 days
3) A valid medical certificate (good for up to a year)

Just to be accurate its 1 year for commercial License if your acting as PIC as a commercial pilot, otherwise its 2 years if your over 40 and hold a private pilots license and 3 years if your under 40 and hold a private pilots license.

Speaking of recent experience, this is an honor system for the most part as diving is. A pilot could fake a log book entry just as a diver could. However the FAA can randomly show up on the tarmac and spot check you unannounced to verify your current with the appropriate log book entries.

 

[DennisS]

It's not about the dive industry, it's about the individual.

A C card is a learners permit. If someone chooses not to learn that is their problem. I don't want to keep logs, go through hoops, take a simple test and pay some schmuck so I can get air for the next year because someone only dives 1 week a year. That's their problem.

I just want to go out on my boat without getting hassled by the marine patrol and get my fills without being bothered by the dive nanny patrol. I don't want more regulations in my life.

 

[lamont]

i'm really not sure that this policy would actually have the effect of preventing accidents among untrained divers. one of the things that i haven't heard a lot of debate about in this thread is if the policy would actually be effective and worth the associated costs. some people seem to be taking it for granted that it would be, and i'm not sure that i see that.

i'm also not sure that i like the idea that the dive police (even if this is "industry enforced") are going to be trying to protect people from themselves. i'm pretty big on individual liberty. i don't care if people who smoke or drink or are overweight or who have compromised health in some way or who are unskilled or who are just stupid dive. i think its unethical if they don't fully inform their buddies.

i do wholeheartedly agree with the way that GUE runs things, but that is fundamentally an opt-in system. i can choose to let GUE apply their standards to me. I agree with recertification there because of what they're trying to do. if someone who is tech 2 certified takes 2 years off diving its clearly a bad idea for them to hop right back in the game at 240 fsw on their first dive back. but i don't see why they need to go back to square one and get retrained on how to breathe off a regulator underwater again -- at some point i think 'its like riding a bike' kicks in...

and another problem that i see with regulation is that invariably you wind up with compromises which are bad for everyone. you get the no solo diving and recertification rules along with the mandatory snorkel and 4" high nitrox bumper sticker rules.

 

[MHK]

i do wholeheartedly agree with the way that GUE runs things, but that is fundamentally an opt-in system. i can choose to let GUE apply their standards to me. I agree with recertification there because of what they're trying to do. if someone who is tech 2 certified takes 2 years off diving its clearly a bad idea for them to hop right back in the game at 240 fsw on their first dive back. but i don't see why they need to go back to square one and get retrained on how to breathe off a regulator underwater again -- at some point i think 'its like riding a bike' kicks in...

and another problem that i see with regulation is that invariably you wind up with compromises which are bad for everyone. you get the no solo diving and recertification rules along with the mandatory snorkel and 4" high nitrox bumper sticker rules.

Lamont,

For the most part I agree with your comments about lack of regulation, I'm about as anti-government intervention as can be. However the flip side of the coin is that to the extent accidents keep piling up, news coverage increases and/or courts continue to keep busy with lawsuits the only way to keep big-brother out is to do a more effective job at self-policing. Everyone knows that if the government gets involved they'll over-regulate the hell out of the sport and dream up idiotic ideas like snorkels and nitrox advertising banners, see Laguna Beach, Ca. for evidence.. So unless we keep the sport below the radar screen from those eager beaver legislators that have little else to do but make new laws then I suspect it will only remain a matter of time before we get saved from ourselves..

In the interim, I see no harm in raising awareness levels and increasing due diligence. The issue is that we are a self-policing sport, arguably being lead by a privately held, for-profit agency, that has shown time and again the willingness to put earnings per share ahead of safety, the resulting end game will be knowing when enough is enough, and in that regard the industry hasn't shown a heck of a lot of self-restraint.

Regards

 

[drbill]

Well, I for one am thinking of the deaths that have occurred in our waters. Many if not most have been people who were obviously out of shape physically, or re-entered the water after long absences. Personally, I'm tired of seeing the deaths (and close calls as well)... and the situations they put other divers or rescue personnel in.

I would imagine that the great majority of those who frequent SB would not be inconvenienced much (if any) if such a proposal were implemented. Most of us are impossible to get OUT of the water as it is.

I have to have my CA state driver's license renewed every so often. It is probably to ensure that I am not a threat to OTHER drivers, more than to protect me. Of course driving the LA freeways is a lot more dangerous than most activities I undertake.

Such a strong anti-government bias as well. Hmmm.

Dr. Bill

 

[Kim]

In the end though whatever the US legislators do it would only apply in the US - much as the Quebec system only applies to Quebec.
I suspect that in the rest of the world, especially the thousands of 'holiday' based dive ops, nothing would change. Which vacation divers are going to be bothered with the sport if before they can do their yearly reef tour they have to recertify? If the agencies pushed it, diver numbers would fall, and many dive ops would go under. This alone would probably deter everyone from taking this kind of action. I think a lot of these ops, their instructors and DMs, are aware of the appalling lack of skills of many of their customers and take it into account - holding hands where necessary. Should this be happening - of course not, but it does seem to be a general reality.

 

[PhotoTJ]

Dr. Bill, I hope if they ever make this re-certification agency you hope for, it is in conjunction with the California Department of Licensing, and you have a nice long wait in line for suggesting the idea.

Join AAA, never takes me more than 5 mins. to get anything taken care of.

Sorry for the brief hijack, we now return to our regularly scheduled programming.

Hmm, an overweight, vacation diving woman in her 30's or a man in his 50's seem doomed.