Thank heavens for PADI

[durian]

One thing PADI has done. They have placed a lot more people in the pool! Now we have a bigger pool to learn from. We have more combined experience, research, diving friendly legislation, enviromental AWAREness, etc. Equipment is better as well because of the volume. Yes, more mistakes and tragedies which come with volume,but those are learned from as well.

Also there was a day when diving wasnot that common of s sport. Way back when Mike Nelson was still diving it was quite a badge of honor to be a diver.Now it is a bit more common and does not hold the same mystique and wonder as it once did?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Lets hope you are not talking about the Indy firemen who died. They were not on a scuba advanced open water dive.
They were diving full face masks and in almost nil viz - neither were doing rec diving. The PSD training they were doing was not part of a PADI class. The public wouldn't know who sues whom. I doubt it is public record or knowledge.
The way the reply reads, it seems the PSD divers were on PADI courses - they were not.

I said AOW level...

The first was doing simple circular search...we teach that in AOW all the time and in no better vis. Did you read the OSHA report...it's incredible...unbelievable...full face mask...big deal! Coms not working, practicing searches at 70 ft. Nil vis? Before or after they started? Read the OSHA report. Two searches at the same time close together. They tied the guy up! That OSHA report was the most incredible thing I've read in my life. Read the recommendations that OSHA made. They knew exactly what was wrong.

No it wasn't part of a PADI class. Was it any agency?

After the second death the the instructor was discharged and the family of the first filed suit. As I understand it though the city is protected pretty well by law.

Law suits are a matter of public record.

Accidents happen, the how they happen is all guess work here, at best proving there was better ways to train in retention ponds around the city.
I have no FIRST hand knowledge of what happened only what has been told to me by diver who were there on the day, what was said is still private, rumour serves no purpose here.

Acidents don't just happen especially ones like this. How they happen is not all guess work. That's an excuse...sounds like a school kid when they get a bad grade..."but its not myyyy fault".

You don't have to listen to private rimour. Read the OSHA report. It's available and it's very detailed based on interviews with every one involved. I read it so many time I had the whole thing commited to memory. I still can't believe it. Read it carefully and draw a diagram of what they're describing.

 

[TCDiver1]

True but but what we don't know is how many dives are being done. I tend to think that the number of dives done each year is also staying pretty constant.

Not from what i've seen.

In our neck of the woods it was rare to see a dive flag bobbing on the water 25-30 years ago, and we all knew each other when you did. Now you see dive flags all the time and your less likely to know who the divers are. Granted, many of these divers are probably only doing a few dives a year but they are doing the dives.

I bet the same is true of most diving areas. For that reason i have little doubt that many more dives are being done today. The question is how many more?

My guess is the number of dives done has increased steadily each year while the number of diving deaths has shown no appreciable change in either direction.

What, if any, significance this has to the quality of training or lack thereof can be left up to the casual observer to decide but i have little doubt more dives are being done today.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Not from what i've seen.

In our neck of the woods it was rare to see a dive flag bobbing on the water 25-30 years ago, and we all knew each other when you did. Now you see dive flags all the time and your less likely to know who the divers are. Granted, many of these divers are probably only doing a few dives a year but they are doing the dives.

I bet the same is true of most diving areas. For that reason i have little doubt that many more dives are being done today. The question is how many more?

My guess is the number of dives done has increased steadily each year while the number of diving deaths has shown no appreciable change in either direction.

What, if any, significance this has to the quality of training or lack thereof can be left up to the casual observer to decide but i have little doubt more dives are being done today.

I have no idea how many divers were being done 30 years ago so I won't argue that.

But there's no was that the increase in number of dives is any where near the increase in the number of certified divers.

Like I said before, with the number of divers certified every year you would need a bunch of new resorts each year just to come close to keeping pace.

In the last couple of years I think we've seen resorts closing an there has been a ton of shops that have closed.

The other thing I'll point out is the low percentage of certified divers who become avid or regular divers. It's a very small percentage. For many it's a one shot deal. The get certified, dive on a vacation and they're about done.

What's the ratio of AOW certs or rescue certs to OW certs?

There was one year that only about half of the certs that I issued were OW. The rest were AOW and above. Gary Joice at PADI was real impressed with out continueing ed program until I pointed out how the numbers really shook out. All of those advanced, specialty and rescue certs were issued to a very small number of divers. It's the old break out...90% of the advanced certs are issued to 10% (or less) of the divers. It's the same with dives. most dives are done by a minority of the divers.

After running a shop for 4 years I can tell you that most student are in for OW and you never see them again. Over the years I've run into many of them around town since I still work in the same town and they DO NOT continue diving, at least not on a regular basis. They go on their honymoon or whatever, dive and that's about it. Most are in...and...out with a very small few becomming regular divers and most of those don't stick with it for more than a couple of years.

I'll bet that if we stopped issuing certs for a year the number of dives would plumet to nothing because last years certs aren't diving this year.

I'm not saying that the industry hasn't grown in 30 years I'm saying that the number of dives are fairly flat compare to the number of divers that are certified each year.

We're not training safe divers. We're training divers who don't dive much.

 

[TCDiver1]

I have no idea how many divers were being done 30 years ago so I won't argue that.

But there's no was that the increase in number of dives is any where near the increase in the number of certified divers.

Like I said before, with the number of divers certified every year you would need a bunch of new resorts each year just to come close to keeping pace.

In the last couple of years I think we've seen resorts closing an there has been a ton of shops that have closed.

The other thing I'll point out is the low percentage of certified divers who become avid or regular divers. It's a very small percentage. For many it's a one shot deal. The get certified, dive on a vacation and they're about done.

What's the ratio of AOW certs or rescue certs to OW certs?

There was one year that only about half of the certs that I issued were OW. The rest were AOW and above. Gary Joice at PADI was real impressed with out continueing ed program until I pointed out how the numbers really shook out. All of those advanced, specialty and rescue certs were issued to a very small number of divers. It's the old break out...90% of the advanced certs are issued to 10% (or less) of the divers. It's the same with dives. most dives are done by a minority of the divers.

After running a shop for 4 years I can tell you that most student are in for OW and you never see them again. Over the years I've run into many of them around town since I still work in the same town and they DO NOT continue diving, at least not on a regular basis. They go on their honymoon or whatever, dive and that's about it. Most are in...and...out with a very small few becomming regular divers and most of those don't stick with it for more than a couple of years.

I'll bet that if we stopped issuing certs for a year the number of dives would plumet to nothing because last years certs aren't diving this year.

I'm not saying that the industry hasn't grown in 30 years I'm saying that the number of dives are fairly flat compare to the number of divers that are certified each year.

We're not training safe divers. We're training divers who don't dive much.

So we agree that more dives are being done and the death rate is not going up, correct? :06:

Mike, i agree that the number of dives per year/ certified diver is going down. I know it has in my case but not by choice. In my case and probably many other peoples cases, it is primarily due to other pressures for my time. Family, business, work, other hobbies or interests, etc.

It's not just caused by training that is less than adequate. Heck, i dove my guts out for ten years with only a Padi BOW card. BOW certification was only three dives back then. The BOW training was good but far from adequate by your standards.

Life happens, sometimes diving isn't part of it. Not everyone gets certified with the intention of becoming an avid diver. In fact i agree with your experience, most do not become avid divers. I don't think more thorough training would change that for many people. JMO.

 

[MikeFerrara]

So we agree that more dives are being done and the death rate is not going up, correct? :06:

Not really. I agree that the number of dives has probably gone up in the last 30 years. Since I've been in this business I think it's been pretty flat with maybe a little down turn the last couple of years.

Mike, i agree that the number of dives per year/ certified diver is going down. I know it has in my case but not by choice. In my case and probably many other peoples cases, it is primarily due to other pressures for my time. Family, business, work, other hobbies or interests, etc.

There are lots of reasons. One reason might be that more and more divers are being certified specifically to dive exotic locations only. If they don't have the time or the money to travel they don't dive. They're just not the kind of diver that will jump in any old puddle just to go diving so sometimes they don't dive.

It's not just caused by training that is less than adequate. Heck, i dove my guts out for ten years with only a Padi BOW card. BOW certification was only three dives back then. The BOW training was good but far from adequate by your standards.

I didn't say that it was. I did say that I believe that a large percentage of the dives that are done are done under some level of supervision and that's part of the reason that there are so few accidents. I also know for a fact that many newly certified divers just don't have the confidence to go out and dive on their own with a buddy. They wait for the guided dives and for most people that means fewer oportunities to dive.

Life happens, sometimes diving isn't part of it. Not everyone gets certified with the intention of becoming an avid diver. In fact i agree with your experience, most do not become avid divers. I don't think more thorough training would change that for many people. JMO.

I agree. Although a diver with the confidence to dive independantly has more choices as to where and when they dive.

All I'm saying is that I don't think the low accident rate is proof the training is good since lots of these people aren't diving much and when they do they have help.

I think that if we gave all the DM's in the world a year off either few would dive or lots would have real trouble.

 

[MikeFerrara]

But...
If training is so good why does Cozumel, which is one of the most popular destinations, require a guide by law? I don't know if they're worried about the divers or their reefs or both but they don't seem to have the confidence in typical training that some of you do.

There are other countries also...At least one province in Canada passed legislation due to accidents. France... and a few others that either require a guid or recertification by them.

I don't keep up on it but I get the impression that laws restricting diving are on the upswing.

 

[scubadoguk]

But...
If training is so good why does Cozumel, which is one of the most popular destinations, require a guide by law? I don't know if they're worried about the divers or their reefs or both but they don't seem to have the confidence in typical training that some of you do.

There are other countries also...At least one province in Canada passed legislation due to accidents. France... and a few others that either require a guid or recertification by them.

I don't keep up on it but I get the impression that laws restricting diving are on the upswing.

Coz probably has a unemployment issue and this is a good way to look after it's own people, also to look after its reefs, by the same people to sustain a work place, loads of bad divers go there and Florida both have DM's who go out on boats and have lots of return business

 

[Jeddah Aquanaut]

Get a life already....all you 4 and 5 star board members bickering over PADI...My dad is stonger than your dad....my car is faster than your car....my tooth past fights tartar better than yours does.... I'm not sure that this bickering is very productive. One thing I am sure of is weither you take a course from PADI, NAUI, SSI or Billy Bob's school for the gifted diver and you go diving without a reg in your mouth or a tank on your back... you aint gonna see much of the beauty diving has to offer and you aint gonna get very far from the dive boat!!! Thank god for all the diving organizations out there for making diving possible for all of us!!!!

P.S. The only reason not to smile to your neighbor is facial paralysis...and even then...you could always give a thumbs up.

I liked this view. It doesn't matter which acronymically-challenged organisations you choose; if you have a head on your shoulders and listen/learn well, you'll do well regardless of the alphabet soup. There seems to be a variety of agendas that people have with regard to this thread. We need to separate the $$$$$ side of PADI et al. from the quality of instruction one gets from whichever org. Of course PADI is in business to make money! You could pick any org and bash it around ad infinitum. Duh. Who isn't in business to make money? Of course some of the practices that are "floating around" are perhaps not the best. That's where your instructor comes in. If you've got a good instructor, you'll do well. If you don't,but you've got a brain, you'll either find a different instructor or learn to separate the rice from the chaff. The varied dive organisations are like the varied cultures I encounter around the world: No one is the best or worst; they are just different. I've learned enough in my journey up to Dive Master to recognize the good from the bad. I never stop learning; I see PADI, NAUI, BSAC... doing smart things and things that are downright dangerous. No one org is inherently better than any other, all mud slinging aside. Anyway, to conclude, if there are so many non-PADI members slinging mud at PADI, why not start your own web board and take your mud with you? Pick specific topics and discuss them professionally.

 

[Mrs Mares]

here here!!! well said.. in england we have 2 choices, either learn to dive with PADI or BSAC, or don't learn to dive at all. I chose PADI, and regardless of all your negative input i could not have asked for any more from my instructors,(a husband and wife team) they did not rush me into anything, had untold patience and were very caring and professional and offered one on one training if needed at NO extra cost. In fact the classes were never bigger than 4 students at any one time. They even offered a money back guarantee, if they couldn't qualify you or you did not want to carry on with the OW course then they would give you your money back...Now does that sound like they were just in it for the money???
Maybe there are PADI instructors that are BAD, but i find it hard to believe that there are no bad instructors in other orgs...Instead of beating up one organisation, it would be far more beneficial if you pointed out the good points to look for in an instructor.