Thankfully, all four divers came back out of the hole ...

[Web Monkey]

For my future reference, if this should occur again, what is the "Are you ********** crazy?" sign?

Point at the offending DM, then point at your head with your index finger and make a circle motion around your ear. It can be either a question or a statement.

If I get a chance tomorrow, I'll make a video and put it on youtube.

Terry

 

[wedivebc]

I am not a troll and that is not the case I was asking about.

A simple web search would save you the appearance of being a troll. The lady that drowned was both inexperienced and badly trained, to the point she should not have been certified.

starbulletin.com | News | /2006/05/25/

Her rental deflator was broke/jammed so that air added to the BC came right out. If she were horizontal with the deflator below her the BC would have held quite a bit of air. Instead she was vertical at 10' struggling to swim to the surface (without ditching weights), spit out her reg, swallowed water and drowned at a 30' deep dive site, with 2 functional regs and a nearly full tank (IIRC).

There was no overhead and the guide/instructor did not guide her into anything because this was the initial descent.

The family lawyer went after the manufacturer, distributor and dive shop. Even though many thought the dive shop could have defended themselves, it would have been months of bad press, so they settled (with the other defendants).

Can't see how this incident has anything to do with this thread.

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

So I am somewhat bemused by the sensationalist title and the number of people who have suggested that these dives can't be done without specific overhead training...


Cheers,
Rohan.

Well then it might help if PADI removed the full page from their book where the message I got out of it is "dive overhead without training: you'll have a good chance of never seeing the light of day again". After "never hold your breath" it was the thing I remember most from the book.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

Point at the offending DM, then point at your head with your index finger and make a circle motion around your ear. It can be either a question or a statement.

If I get a chance tomorrow, I'll make a video and put it on youtube.

Terry

gasp.... giggle send me the link please

 

[String]

String.

It maybe that I stated that wrong....

Should I have said .. that is how people get themselves killed, By doing what they are not trained and or experienced enough to do and then following someone that is?

My point is... Don't go where you should not.

No, it should be "Don't go where you aren't happy in your own ability to get you out of". Going into new places or doing something new is part of the learning experience and as a qualified diver you can do or not to whatever you want. If you aren't happy in your own skills in a given situation then simply dont put yourself in that situation.

I saw this with my own eye's.

A school that teaches everything from Open water to master Instructor, I watched the Instructors take Open Water student's down to 90 feet too do there Open Water skills, Does that give you any idea of where I am coming from.

In which case report them. Its an entirely different situation. In THIS case its under instruction so falls within agency standards. Those standards are being broken so should be reported.
None of that applies to guided dives though.

I have seen with my own eye's DM'S and Instructors do what ever they want and the NEW divers follow not knowing any better.

Even the newest of new divers should have a sense of what they do and dont feel comfortable about doing. Or did they miss that lesson about being able to end the dive whenever they want?

 

[String]

in a situation where you'll have to blindly rely on a 3rd party" at all. A quick look at his profile shows that he's a PADI AOW diver, ergo trained to dive with a buddy.

Trained to dive with a buddy but NOT blindly trained to have to rely on a buddy. Or at least shouldn't be. People should ALWAYS be prepared to extract themselves from a situation, be that a solo ascent, separation or any other reason. It happens.
If you aren't equipped or skilled to do that you ARE blindly relying on a potentially unrelaible 3rd party and in my view that is dangerous.

Would you seriously ignore someone who was a accident waiting to happen (but unaware of the fact) because you feel that you shouldn't "force your views onto them"?

If you are an Instructor, I hope not.

If im working as an instructor then i have a duty of care to mention it. If im working as a guide i may filter divers sites based on their ability mainly for company insurance reasons. If im diving for fun as a paying customer then really it is none of my business to interfere.

 

[String]

I am not a troll and that is not the case I was asking about.

So where is the case?

 

[Web Monkey]

Even the newest of new divers should have a sense of what they do and dont feel comfortable about doing. Or did they miss that lesson about being able to end the dive whenever they want?

I think you're forgetting what it's like to be new.

A brand new diver isn't "comfortable" anywhere in OW. They have no frame of reference to base the comfort on and have had no prior similar experience unless you count kneeling on the sand for a regulator exchange or following someone around for a short pre-planned tour.

They've had some number of pool sessions and if it was a good class, are completely bored with the whole idea of a pool dive and can clear a mask, switch and clear regulators several different ways and perform all the needed skills with little anxiety.

However now they're dropped off into the essentially infinite ocean with someone who looks and acts like their instructor and they follow right along, just like they did all during training. Although it's easy to say they should have good judgment, judgment is based on experience and they don't have any yet.

Terry

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I think you're forgetting what it's like to be new.

A brand new diver isn't "comfortable" anywhere in OW. They have no frame of reference to base the comfort on and have had no prior similar experience unless you count kneeling on the sand for a regulator exchange or following someone around for a short pre-planned tour.

They've had some number of pool sessions and if it was a good class, are completely bored with the whole idea of a pool dive and can clear a mask, switch and clear regulators several different ways and perform all the needed skills with little anxiety.

However now they're dropped off into the essentially infinite ocean with someone who looks and acts like their instructor and they follow right along, just like they did all during training. Although it's easy to say they should have good judgment, judgment is based on experience and they don't have any yet.

Terry

Not everybody is the same ocean-phobic flat-lander as you evidently once were. I have certified big wave surfers, free dive hunters and lifeguards that were comfortable on their first open water checkout. I have taken AAU kids on intro dives where they did better than AOW divers with 50 Cozumel drift dives. I would and have taken quite a few of those divers into spacious overheads on dive 5.

 

[Web Monkey]

Not everybody is the same ocean-phobic flat-lander as you evidently once were. I have certified big wave surfers, free dive hunters and lifeguards that were comfortable on their first open water checkout. I have taken AAU kids on intro dives where they did better than AOW divers with 50 Cozumel drift dives. I would and have taken quite a few of those divers into spacious overheads on dive 5.

Thanks for making my point on both ends:

New divers have no frame of reference to know when they're being taken somewhere they shouldn't be and there are professionals that will happily take them there.

Terry