The Aqualung Discussion [ Moved ]

[aquaoren]

Hey Oren, how's it going.

To answer your quetions;
Yes I knew Divetank sold Apeks before I bought mine from KDS.
How about it.
No. For most of the same reasons I would not buy my life support equioment from a US internet dealer minus the duty and exchange issues. There's the warranty thing, having to send my regs via mail or courier to get them serviced, and the time delays etc. There's also the fact that it's easy to ignore an complaining email or phone call, but try ingoring the customer when he's face to face with you....

Like I said my preference was to deal with an LDS in Ottawa for the life support equipment. In this particular case, the tech who does the work for the LDS I bought from is one of the best in the area, and is known for his commitment to his clients, and went the extra distance to help the decision making process. You know him as well.

It's not the same here Oren and you know this. There are only a very few Internet based dive retailers that are based in Canada, and even in the case of the most popluar, Divetank, they have a LDS in Burnaby so their not exclusively an internet dealer. When you look at the number of US based Internet dive retailers compared to their market than look at the same numbers here in Canada...well there's just no comparison.

Sure there's eBay and some Canadian based dealers hiding out there, but again they are few and far between.

Unitl we have the plethora of Internet based dive equipment retailers based in Canada, where you pay in Canadian, where there's no duty or brokerage fees,
and where shipping costs are priced based on domestic and not international fees, we don't have the same issues here...

Hey Rick, life is good and it could be better if I only had more time to get out diving.
I was talking about the price fixing issues which are the same as in the USA. I do know the shop you're talking about and the tech in question.
Please don't forget though that many internet seller south of the boarder also have LDS just as Divetank does. Nevertheless, please don't forget that most shops here in Canada would be also more than happy to ship you your order if you'd call them and place it over the phone.
I'm just trying to get a discussion here while respecting your decision to buy from your LDS.
I wouldn't have any issues buying some of the life support equipment you're talking about over the phone or the internet, especially when still getting the warranty. The tech will be more than happy to service your gear regardless where you've bought it.

 

[mike_s]

This is a case of a company (Aqualung) controlling/restricting a bunch of mom-and-pop small dive shops. These small shops alone couldn't buck the system because they didn't have the buying power to do it.

Along comes another small dive shop, and what do you know, he started to get big. He started to sell a LOT of product. All the sudden he started ordering in larger quantities for larger discounts from the manufacturer. Of course bigger discounts made him even more compettive. But he offered something else. He gave high end value add service with it. Other dive shops started complaining to the manufacturer because they couldn't compete with this 'new kid on the block' selling to all of "their" customers for less money and better service. Aqualung lost control somewhere along the way......

How did they regain control? by trying to squash the torn in their side.

By doing this they did two things that made them think they had 'victory'.
1.) They were able to brag to the other whiney dive shops they had taken care of the problem of another dealer undercutting their price and service they had been complaining about.
2.) This also allowed Aqualung to say "If we can cut off a dealer that sells X amount of $100k per year, we can squash your little wimpy store too".

 

[Brandon]

In the case of Dive Sports, I trusted them but they can no longer service my need because SOMEONE ELSE, that is Aqualung, interfered.

Heheheh, way to try to get the thread back on topic!

-B.

 

[Storm]

The price you are willing to pay will change because the value changes (the product is the same in all cases).

Not necessaruly in this particular case. The "value" to me does include the trust factor, but also the warranty factor parts for life (reg sets x 2), the fact that I don't have to send my regs through the box grinder of the postal service for repair or service, the fact that if something did go wrong and as a result of a service technician error I ended up hurt or killed, action could be taken that would have a realistic chance of going through (no multiple jurisdictions to go through.).

These are the intrinsics that I calculate the value of a purchase upon.

I actually had the opportunity to buy my regs "new from an online source" (cheaper than from my LSD), "used from another local diver" (again cheaper), but still opted for the "new from my LDS route"(more cost up frint, but will pay off over time). The long term cost benefit of using the authorized LDS still worked out to my benefit over the life of the regs.

 

[Brandon]

Not necessaruly in this particular case. The "value" to me does include the trust factor, but also the warranty factor parts for life (reg sets x 2), the fact that I don't have to send my regs through the box grinder of the postal service for repair or service, the fact that if something did go wrong and as a result of a service technician error I ended up hurt or killed, action could be taken that would have a realistic chance of going through (no multiple jurisdictions to go through.).

You do realize that you can buy regulators with full manufacturer's warranties online... right?

And that all regulators were at one point shipped through the "box grinder" to your LDS.

The repair parts were too.

And at some point, technicians not known to you likely assembled / tested / worked on the regulator.

My point being...

All of us were taught how to deal with a regulator failure in our open water classes. A regulator malfunction is NOT a death sentence.

-Brandon.

 

[Storm]

You do realize that you can buy regulators with full manufacturer's warranties online... right?

And that all regulators were at one point shipped through the "box grinder" to your LDS.

The repair parts were too.

And at some point, technicians not known to you likely assembled / tested / worked on the regulator.

My point being...

All of us were taught how to deal with a regulator failure in our open water classes. A regulator malfunction is NOT a death sentence.

-Brandon.

Brandon,

From what I've been told, and read both here and elsewhere, online dealers cannot provide the lifetime warranty on Apeks regs direclty they have to do some sort of shell game to achieve this as it's against the authorized dealers agreement to post the prices online etc...etc... Some do skate around this, but it's a skate, a dodge, and that in itself draws doubts as to whether or not the warranty will be honored down the road. When a guy on the internet says don't worry we'll do this shuffle, and tell that lie then you'll get your warranty their ethics come into question, and thus all of their ethics come into question,,, including the honoring of warrantees etc.

Yup all regs were shipped, via the box grinder, but by the time I pick them up from the tech (who works about 3 miles from my house) they've been serviced (with the parts from the box grinder that he has inspected and verfified that they are good parts) tuned and checked..so if there's any damage done in transit from the LDS to my house, it's my own fault..in other words I can dive the regs with a certain trust that I would not have if they came from the post office or courier company after being serviced. I've seen way too many "damaged in transit" cases in my life to trust sending stuff like this through the mail or a courier.

Like I said, I have no problem buying some stuff online, but not my regs.

Just becuse I was trained on how to survivie a reg failure, doesn't mean I want to court one. I'm not aying using online dealers will lead to one. I'm not saying sending your regs through the mail will lead to one. But unless I have to, why expose myself to the possibility.

 

[Brandon]

Brandon,

Online dealers cannot provide the lifetime warranty on Apeks regs direclty they have to do some sort of shell game to achieve this as it's against the authorized dealers agreement to post the prices online etc...etc... Some do skate around this, but it's a skate, a dodge, and that in itself draws doubts as to whether or not the warranty will be honored down the road. When a guy on the internet says don't worry we'll do this shuffle, and tell that lie then you'll get your warranty their ethics come into question, and thus all of their ethics come into question,,, including the honoring of warrantees etc.

Yep, and I realize that... I wasn't talking about a specific brand. There are brands that offer full warranties (Zeagle, Oceanic, Aeris, Tusa, Mares, Dive-Rite, etc)

If you want Apeks / Scubapro / Aqualung / etc... you're out of luck on the internet.

This is one of the main reasons I'm such a fan of Zeagle.

What we're really talking about here is your personal preferences, because there's a solution to ever one of the problems you've suggested. Most of us who are dissatisfied with our LDS / specific brands have worked something out.. and we still have safe, well-serviced high performing gear that isn't costing us an arm in the leg.

If you prefer to buy from the LDS and have your gear serviced there because it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling... go for it!


-B

 

[Storm]

Yep, and I realize that... I wasn't talking about a specific brand.

If you want Apeks / Scubapro / Aqualung / etc... you're out of luck on the internet.

This is one of the main reasons I'm such a fan of Zeagle.

What we're really talking about here is your personal preferences, because there's a way to get around every one of your arguments.

If you prefer to buy from the LDS and have your gear serviced there because it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling... go for it!


-B

This entire thread is devoted to two specific groups of products from one corporation (AL and Apeks by association). My comments on this being primarily a US market issue (the resulsts of the price fixing and LDS vs internet) were based on the cost benefits (real or imagined) when buying from a US based internet dealer when the purchaser lives outside of the US. In my experience so far, with a few exceptions, there has been no real benefit (price wise) once you factor in the hidden costs..including in some case the loss of warranty parts etc.

For example, the parts kits for my Apeks are about 15.00 per second stage and 19.00 per first stage (approx). That works out to 100.00 total per year for mine and my wife's regs (4 x secondary 2 x primary). Take that over the first three years, and the online w/o warranty and free parts just lost it's savings. Take it out over the life of the regs (say 10 years) and the cost saving on annual maintenance alone is 700.00.

Then factor in all the intrinsics that I mentioned and yup..the LDS with ther full price still comes out ahead...in the long run. It's got as much to do with the warm fuzzy as it has to do with keeping some of my cash in my pocket.

 

[ChillyWaters]

My comments on this being primarily a US market issue (the resulsts of the price fixing and LDS vs internet) were based on the cost benefits (real or imagined) when buying from a US based internet dealer when the purchaser lives outside of the US....

Go back and read your comments. You have not tried to make a single point, but rather jump around like a rabbit on crack. You deflect peoples rebuttals and make new stands rather than defend any of your points.

Though, if it is a US market issue and it is more expensive to purchase from Internet stores, then what is your worry? Just don't shop online, obviously. There wouldn't be any debate of LDS vs the Internet if this were really true. If you're worried about parts, don't buy from unauthorized dealers. If you're worried about reputation, just buy from reputable dealers (e.g. Larry or Divetank). If you're worried about things being wrecked in shipping, test it out before you go deep, and, as mentioned, you should be trained to deal with any unfortunate situations. Do you not think that your local LDS gets things shipped to it? Shipping doesn't automatically destroy all equipment. If you're worried about suing peole down south, I bet if died, your wife could sue someone down there. Though, I'm not really sure why you're worried about suing people.

- ChillyWaters

 

[Storm]

Go back and read your comments. You have not tried to make a single point, but rather jump around like a rabbit on crack. You deflect peoples rebuttals and make new stands rather than defend any of your points.

Though, if it is a US market issue and it is more expensive to purchase from Internet stores, then what is your worry? Just don't shop online, obviously. There wouldn't be any debate of LDS vs the Internet if this were really true. If you're worried about parts, don't buy from unauthorized dealers. If you're worried about reputation, just buy from reputable dealers (e.g. Larry or Divetank). If you're worried about things being wrecked in shipping, test it out before you go deep, and, as mentioned, you should be trained to deal with any unfortunate situations. Do you not think that your local LDS gets things shipped to it? Shipping doesn't automatically destroy all equipment. If you're worried about suing peole down south, I bet if died, your wife could sue someone down there. Though, I'm not really sure why you're worried about suing people.

- ChillyWaters

Atually I'm not worried about launching lawsuits, in the total cost benefit analysis this was just one aspect. There are other and I have listed them.

I thank you for the premission to shop my own preferences but that was not the point of my post.

In the genreal terms, most of the cost savings by purchasing equipment online for a purchaser outrside of the the US are swallowed by the extra charges previously mentioned etc. This is no slight toward Larry, never met him, never dealt with him, and by all accounts I've read he's a great retailer. Good for him. He, howver, cannot ship to me, without all the added costs. This is not his fault, just the was it is.

This is why I say this is mostly a US market issue. The fellows down south can see an actuall cost saviongs to buying their gear on line. They don't have the exchange, added shipping, duty and brokerage to eat up thier savings. Once we get more online dealers in Canada we might see the same issue arise here with much more prominence. But as the sitruation exist it's not the issue here as it is down south.

There are five dive shops in Ottawa, they are all surviving despite the internet dealers.

I pay about the same for Scubapro parts kits. But I find that a kit will last 2 to 5 years with good care and cleaning. Plus I do it myself so my annual maintenance cost per regulator is down in the $20.00 range. I have no use for "parts-for-life" programs that cost $200.00 and then another $100.00 annually, per regulator. I'm currently maintaining 5 complete rigs as well as a couple pony rigs so the actual cost differential is fairly large.

YMMV

I don't work on my own equipment...perhaps on day in the future. I don't know about the part for life issue you have run into, but I only have to pay the labour costs for my annual servicing and my tech doesn't charge 100.00 per reg for his labor.

It also not just the annual serviceing parts, all part replacement, are free. Yeah I know ..kind of like insurance that you may never need (drop a tank and break a housing, and its replaced free), but the extra little bit of cost is really insignificant.

I lease my cars for the same reason. I'm far to busy to learn how to fix a car, so I lease..the maintenance is all covered...makes life easier, and I can affordit.