R
redacted
Guest
Storm:
If an item is available locally and the price is reasonable (or better even), I can't see any reason for buying from a place like Leisurepro.
The Aqualung Discussion [ Moved ]
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If an item is available locally and the price is reasonable (or better even), I can't see any reason for buying from a place like Leisurepro.
Storm
Contributor
awap:
I agree but I take it a step further. Even if the price is higher at my LDS, I have to look at things like servicing, and warranty work, shipping, and then there's the trust factor. I simply will not trust my life support system to someone I haven't met personnaly, and to a shipper that won't give a crap about how they handle the gear.
Storm
Contributor
fairbanksdiver:
Brandon,
Don't take tis the wrong way, but you're missing my point. Larry is most likely a very honest fellow, he certainly has the reputaton for it, but that doesn't eliminate the fact that if a dispute were to happen, I, as a non US citizen have no protection under US law therefore the only recourse I would have would be to sue the retailer. Ask yourself this, what do you think your chanes of getting a case against a Canadian retailer to court if you live in US. Your laws have no jursidiction here, and the procedures for such a case are toitaly different,,,in short you would be screwed.
If a multi-million dollar US company could not get a Canadian charged with theft and fraud (DTV vs the non US world during the old grey market satellite days) What chance would a private citizen have against a foreign retailer....answer nil.
All of this comes about as a result of internet based retailers. They have the advantage of a global market, but can easily ignore any international compalints or pricing norm etc. Whose going to hold them accountable when theur customers have no recourse available to them locally. The same goes for the shipper. Do you really think USPS or Fed Ex really cares about how they handle your gear. Then there's the added costs of duty, etc.
In short, the only people complaining about this issue are US retailers and their compaints are against US based internet retailers. It just doesn't have the traction outside of the US market place. Larry can't possibly make me deal on my regulators (Apeks) that would draw me away from buying them from an LDS or a dive shop within a quick drive here in Ontario.
The way I see it, the price difference would be about 200.00 overall .....subtract the tax, shippng costs, and duty (added on top of the brokerage fee which is a flat 50.00) and you''ve not got any appreciable savings. Compound this with the fact that if you need to service your regs you have to ship to the retailer, so you;ve now got more shipping costs, on top of youor labor costs. It's just not cost beneficial in the long run.
All those guys buying up regs, etc in the US grey market will find that out over time. They're saving a few bucks up front but they'll end up paying more in the long run .
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
Nah,
he got your point. You just don't know Larry and the gang at ScubaToys. Larry exceeds expectations at every level. There is no dispute with Larry around: just results.
he got your point. You just don't know Larry and the gang at ScubaToys. Larry exceeds expectations at every level. There is no dispute with Larry around: just results.
ChillyWaters
Contributor
Storm:
You said the keyword, but ignored it in your argument: reputation.
Would purchasing from your local dive shop be worth it if they screwed you over either... sure, you could go to court, but just think of the hassle. Larry has a GREAT reputation, and I don't see the fact that he is based in the U.S. to be a signficant worry.
How many times have you gone to court in your life over a retail issue? If the answer is greater than 1, then perhaps Larry doesn't want your business anyways.
Reputation is key. If < 0.01% of people have a problem with him, then why should you worry? Chances are that, "cost savings" >> "price paid" * 0.01.
- ChillyWaters
Storm
Contributor
ChillyWaters:
A retail issue...hmmmm.... you make it sound like you're purchasing a pair of pants or a TV. Sueing over the retail aspect of the purchase is one thing (and you;re correct it wouldn;t happen ofetn), but what about the case where the regs were serviced improperly and they fail..now you're not takng about missing your favorite TV show, you're talking about a potential loss of life...try sueing accross borders over something like that.
If the tech at my LDS screwed up at least my wife would have some venue.
And you're still missing one of my main points. The online price always looks good until you add the currency exchange, shipping duty, brokerage fees.... believe me I've purchased from online dealers for some small items and with the exception of a few eBay deasl and the finger spool deal that was running here on this site, once3 all the extras were added to the "deal price" the cost was about the same.
The fellows down south have a legitamite beef with AL but again its mainly a US market issue. One created by the mix of Al price fixing, US based Internet grey marketers, and US dive shops. Folks outside of the US are less likely to participate in the online dealerships as the final price usually is not worth it.
I talked with a dealer from Vegas who was grey marketing Apeks regs and he was about 200.00 per unit less than what I paid from my LDS, but when the all the incidentals were added up, and the fact that you loose out on the warranty it just was not worth it.
Again I understand, and do not with anyone to think I was implying anything negative about Larry and his operation, I was not.
I purchased wetsuoits from Divetank.com out of BC and they were great. The price was also great as there were no incidentals like duty, exchange, shipping brokerage and duty.....like mI said these extra costs can make it cost ineffective to buy online.
aquaoren
Contributor
Did you know that Divetank sells Apeks regs as well? Now how about that? Would you consider it?Storm:
Price fixing isn't only a US problem, it's the same over here too. This wouldn't be possible in most European contries for example.
Storm
Contributor
aquaoren:
Hey Oren, how's it going.
To answer your quetions;
Yes I knew Divetank sold Apeks before I bought mine from KDS.
How about it.
No. For most of the same reasons I would not buy my life support equioment from a US internet dealer minus the duty and exchange issues. There's the warranty thing, having to send my regs via mail or courier to get them serviced, and the time delays etc. There's also the fact that it's easy to ignore an complaining email or phone call, but try ingoring the customer when he's face to face with you....
Like I said my preference was to deal with an LDS in Ottawa for the life support equipment. In this particular case, the tech who does the work for the LDS I bought from is one of the best in the area, and is known for his commitment to his clients, and went the extra distance to help the decision making process. You know him as well.
It's not the same here Oren and you know this. There are only a very few Internet based dive retailers that are based in Canada, and even in the case of the most popluar, Divetank, they have a LDS in Burnaby so their not exclusively an internet dealer. When you look at the number of US based Internet dive retailers compared to their market than look at the same numbers here in Canada...well there's just no comparison.
Sure there's eBay and some Canadian based dealers hiding out there, but again they are few and far between.
Unitl we have the plethora of Internet based dive equipment retailers based in Canada, where you pay in Canadian, where there's no duty or brokerage fees,
and where shipping costs are priced based on domestic and not international fees, we don't have the same issues here...
homo maris
Contributor
Storm:
The focus on the US is because it is one of the few countries where AL has these restrictions and a US LDS that many of us relied on has been impacted.
Note that people pay for value, not products alone. A products' value is highly dependent on the context in which it is sold. For an example, imaging the same regulator sold in the following contexts:
1. Jacques Cousteau sell you his own brand new reg, tuned to perfection
2. A sleazy charater opens their coat reveling the new shiny reg
3, Your buddy sells you a brand new reg because he got 2 of the same as gifts
The price you are willing to pay will change because the value changes (the product is the same in all cases).
This is why it is ludicrous to compare a trusted vendor to an untrusted vendor. If you trust Leisurepro and your LDS then you can compare getting products from them but if you do not trust Leisurepro but trust your LDS then you cannot compare getting products from them because the value is different even if the product is the same.
I wished people compared the same value. For example, as NetDoc seems to trust Scubatoys then he may buy from them for convenience even if the product is the same at the LDS and at the same price. This maybe because he is online already and it is so late that the LDS is close, or because the LDS is far. While for him the value is the same between Scubatoys and the LDS, other factors such as convenience or ease of purchase drive the vendor selection. He can then truly compare Scubatoys to the LDS. Those who trust one vendor but distrus another cannot compare them.
In the case of Dive Sports, I trusted them but they can no longer service my need because SOMEONE ELSE, that is Aqualung, interfered.
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