The basic scuba course - enough training?

[USVet96]

Jeff - IMO you are definitely NOT nuts. My training was a joke lol. Hardly anything was covered. Literally I got the books, was told to go read it and do the the reviews, then come back and take the test. Which I did and passed. While there the instructor was like do you have any questions lol. True story. We then went and did all the water work. Watch me do this then you do this type of scenario. No tables, No dive planning, etc. After our dives we were told to use the erpd (?) when filling in the log books for the PG - after the dives. What ??

When I did EAN even worse lol. Got the books and video. Went home and read the book, watched the video, and went to the shop. They handed me a test, which I took and didn't miss any, and asked if I had any ?'s lol. They then they grabbed a Nitrox tank and an analyzer and showed me how it worked. End of class. No kidding. No tables, No dive planning, etc. I had to ask them about the tank stickers and they told me the wrong info about what goes on them. Neither class, nor AOW, taught Gas Management. As a matter of fact when I asked about it they had No Idea what that was ("you come up when you start running low on air" was the response I believe). I had to teach THEM lol.

So to say training today is lacking is a HUGE understatement. I feel really concerned for people starting into diving knowing that is the level of professional and education they are getting. They are walking accidents waiting to happen and it's NOT their fault, completely. I'm a BIG believer in the self study program. I have learned 25X on my own through reading books, listening here on SB, asking questions, not settling, and really taking a personal interest in myself and my diving career. I'm learning and growing because I am, and can, and am willing, to put in all the extra work needed, to be a better and a safer diver; for myself and my buddy. But it's a shame for those people than cannot do what I am doing, or do not have the extra time, to get better at being a diver.

They paid good $$ to a reputable agency to learn how to dive and more times than not the system has failed them and let them down.

I'm not saying ALL instructors are like this by any means, and not all shops and programs are like this either. I'm saying that this seems like the norm rather than the exception today and I feel like it is a huge indicator towards why we are seeing more and more tragic incidents dealing with diver injuries and diver fatalities.

I would like to become an instructor someday if I can (not sure with my physical limitations or not). I would like to teach new divers the proper methods and know that they hve been tight well, and right. And even if I can't be an instructor per se, I will always try to help people ANY way that I can.

 

[ScubaSam]

Jeff - I absolutely understand where you're coming from and applaud you for taking a step in the right direction. Some agencies have "dummy" down their courses and the unsuspecting students does not know what they don't know.

I recently learned that two land friends were looking into scuba lessons for their upcoming Cabo trip when they asked for my opinion on instructors and dive shops. One lives in NYC, the other in NJ, and they called local shops for prices and time line. You can get OW certified very quickly and for only a few hundred dollars. :shocked2:

I asked why they wanted to get certified, they said because of how much I enjoyed diving. They do two annual trips with other couples and their small children to tropical beach destinations. I went to Mexico with them in 2008 and got hooked on the cenotes.

I told these two land friends I'd rather they not get certified if their mindset was to rush through it. I told them scuba diving can kill if you're not properly trained...yeah, I know it goes against many agencies' mantra of keeping it light and fun to churn out more OW ill-trained divers. I suggested some instructors I knew and told them if they cannot commit the time to learn properly I don't want them getting certified.

They are going to Cabo next week without getting certified and when they return we will revisit their scuba training. Am I nuts? Nope, cause I wished someone told me what I did not know when I was a fresh face OW-wannabe.

 

[Rich Keller]

Jeff, You are right, OW training today is a joke compared to what I know from OW 40 years ago. Some of what I learned then is not covered very well if at all in todays AOW. When my niece wanted me to teach her to scuba dive I told her to take the cheapest OW course available so she could get her tanks filled and then I would reteach her what she needed to know. Not so much for what they leave out but some of what I would teach her would directly contradict what they would teach and she just needs to pass that one part to get fills. Based on what I have heard my best guess is that you would need to take 3-5 courses now to cover what I learned back then. The whole industry today seems to be geared to selling more courses and equipment with little regard for how long people remain with the sport or their safety. That works for the instructors and shops but what I do not understand is why the charter boats do not cater to the basic OW diver. You can go on SB any time of the day or night and there are almost as many people viewing the new and basic diver threads as there are every other thread combined. I know the shops are under a lot of pressure from the internet but I think they are cutting off their noses to spite their face.

 

[Peter Guy]

And yet another -- Gee, basic scuba training isn't what it used to be thread. As I've written before, who'd of thunk it!

And, also, who'd of thunk that people would harp -- "It ain't like it was in the olden days!"

My grandfather used to love to say, "Good ole days? Hell, there weren't any good ole days!" (And this from a guy who rode the range in Montana and panned for gold during the Yukon Gold Rush and was on one of the first (if not the first) US tanker sunk by the Japanese shortly after Pearl Harbor -- so he knew of what he spoke.)

I, on the other hand, obviously don't know of what I speak because I just got certified in February of 1967 -- so what do I know of teaching back "in the good ole days.?"

This is what I remember:

a. We didn't have to learn about using an alternate air source.

b. We didn't have to learn about using a BCD.

c. We didn't have to learn about a thing called a dry suit.

d. We didn't have to learn about neutral buoyancy and "proper weighting."

e. We didn't have to learn about watching an SPG.

f. We didn't have to learn about using an underwater compass.

g. We didn't have to learn about oxygen enriched gasses.

h. We didn't have to learn about CPR and contacting emergency responders.

i. We didn't have to learn about a whole lot of things.

j. Oh, and did I mention we didn't have to do any open water dives in order to be a certified scuba diver?

I know there were programs in the 60s and 70s that did more than the 15 week university program I was in (2 sessions/week -- classroom one session, pool the other as I recall) but the reality was that the education wasn't better than what a good instructor will teach today within the confines of a "normal" OW class. That is, IF the instructor wishes to teach it.

But I do have a desire to scream at people who say "Wasn't it so much better 'yesterday' than it is today?" No, not necessarily. And the teaching of "yesterday" taught a whole lot less in many respects than the teaching of today. (And yes, I also roll my eyes at the Luddites who complain one can't really know how to drive a car unless you know how to double clutch!)

As a number of us have written before, it isn't any harder to teach a student "well" than to teach one "poorly" -- in fact it may well be easier to teach them "well" since so many of the basic skills are easier to do properly (i.e., more/less neutral and horizontal) than incorrectly (i.e., negative and vertical).

OP -- go ahead and teach a good class -- I applaud you for wanting to do that. But please, not all "the old days" were good and not all "the new way" is bad!

 

[Nwcid]

So this is my first post on this board. I am currently trying to get into a dive class. I have a well rounded background and do adult teaching in the medial field. Here are some thought (cause I have no experience in this area yet).

No matter how long or how good you make a class it could always be longer. You always wish you could teach more. You always wish you could pass on your experience on to your students.

It is always a students responsibility to be the best they can and get the training and time they think they need. It is the instructors job to make the student aware of the things they dont know so they can study more or get more class/practical time in. It is also the responsibility of the instructor to let students know when they are doing good or bad. If the student is doing bad to offer them the resources (may cost more) to improve. While it sucks if those goals are not met to fail the student.

Of course we all know that different people lean differently. For me I like to get some training, then go practice what I learn. After I get that part down get the next lesson in.

Short classes vs long classes. As I am sure we all know the class is the MINIMUM required. I know some will do just that but most strive for more then minimum. For me I would love to know everything there is about diving and spend tons of time learning. I have a job and a life and other hobbies. There is no way I can spend weeks and months going to classes that are held 2hrs from where I live. This is one reason I have not done it before even though I wanted to. While it is held over 2 weekends now and is a lot of info packed in a short time I can get the basics and get started. I am not going to jump in and dive 500' the day I get my card, that is not the point of the class. With my OW I will have some basic knowledge that will allow me to go out and play with some gear at shallow depts. I will know where to get more info. I will be able to go practice these basics till I get comfortable with them then I can take another class to expand what I know and refine what I have learned.

Right now I have not even signed up for a class but the GF and myself have wetsuits, fins, masks and snorkels. We have been out playing in the lakes. Getting use to being in new gear. Getting use to positive buoyancy. Getting use to breathing thought a mouth piece. Getting use to having a mask on your face. These are low risk and can only make things easier with less new things when we hit the class.

I do think your idea is great.

Again just some of my thoughts.

 

[Pullmyfinger]

I don't necessarily see this as a "good 'ol days vs. now" issue. It's about people getting certified and then later feeling that they were duped because they later find out what they weren't taught. Or having a direct comparison that illustrated there's something better out there.

Case in point:

My wife and I got certified when our kids were 4 yrs. and 2 yrs. of age. We didn't want to have to get a baby sitter for every classroom, pool, and open water session. We decided to each get certified with different instructors so that our classroom and in the water times were different.
This way we would avoid having to get a baby sitter as much, we knew we'd need a sitter for when we were actually diving and wanted to minimize it as much as possible.

I got certified by a PADI instructor at a local shop, and my wife took her training through a local independent YMCA instructor.
As a new student I initially didn't know the difference, but it didn't take long to find out.

We would each discuss what we were doing and being taught, what a night and day difference between the YMCA and PADI courses we took. What a stinkin' joke my PADI class was, it covered the absolute minimum. The class room sessions consisted of watching the videos and listening to a few dive stories.
I read the book myself prior to the class and did all of the unit reviews, when the class started we we asked who had done this. I was the only one that even read the book.
The instructor just started the video and said it didn't really matter if we read the book or not, and that the video would cover it all.
The pool work was minimal, just one day for a couple of hours. The open water portion was two day, the first day was two dives of about 15 minutes each. Just enough to go over the skills, the second day of diving was two dives one of which was 10 minutes. The other was about 15 minutes.

Meanwhile back at the YMCA pool, my wife spent about 4 pool session each over an hour long focusing on snorkling, diving to the bottom doing various drills to build confidence in the water, and a lot of fun/stressful sessions.

Then two more sessions in the pool with scuba gear doing the various drills.

I don't remember the exact number of days she had for the open water portion, but the dives were a hell of a lot longer than the 10 and 15 minute dives I was doing during my class.

My class had 8 students, her's had 3. During her open water dives there was an extra student, one who had failed a previous class and was repeating the open water portions.........I doubt anybody has ever failed a PADI class with the shop I got certified at, judging by how short and easy it was. Failure was not an option in my class, if you know what I mean.

I was extremely disappointed in my class. Then I discover Scubaboard and find there are plenty of instructors here that tout the virtues of the shorter classes that they make money off of. Kind of makes me throw up in my mouth a little.

What did I do? My wife and I dove for the next 4 or 5 months then took Open water 2 training with the YMCA instructor that she took her original class with. He spent a lot of time with me getting me taught properly. I am thankful for that training along with the time and attention he gave towards getting me squared away.

Much like Jim Lapenta experiences, many of us former "ate up" PADI divers had to go find a YMCA instructor that gave a $h!t and actually get taught something with substance.....and important to me..................some training that I could actually build on.

To guys like my YMCA instructor, Jim Lapenta, the OP of this thread...Thank you. More than you could possibly know.................Thank you.

So in a "today vs. today" comparison, I'll take the YMCA/CMAS, and now SEI/CMAS approach over the highly advocated and seemingly popular quick and easy approach so often found and mentioned on this board.

As for the instructor vs. agency stuff that gets mentioned here, I bring it up because it's related. I KNOW if I go to an SEI instructor, I'm highly likely to find a squared away instructor.

If I go to PADI (which I have personal experience with), I'm going to ask a lot more questions before I sign up for a class.

It's still somewhat the agency.......With some agencies us student/consumers sort of know what we're going to get. With PADI....it's a crap-shoot.

I'll still take a PADI course in the future, but having been burned (twice, I also took a nitrox class that I basically taught myself). I know that I REALLY have to screen the instructor.

I later repeated that PADI Nitrox class with a TDI instructor.

I later took another PADI class. My drysuit class in Alaska was a PADI class, but that shop was also a GUE shop so I KNEW they wouldn't shortcut me. My point is, I'd take a PADI class, but I'll be cautious when choosing.

As for my kids. My wife and I took what we were taught about snorkling and in the water confidence and have introduced our kids to it. They have been snorkling from dive boats in Yap, Chuuk, and twice to Palau (after plenty of pool sessions). Thanks to what we were taught by a YMCA instructor who cared to teach beyond the minimum.
I want training that I can build on, and I'll pay for it.

Anyway, to the OP.
Thank you, there are people like me that are appreciative, and are willing to pay more and invest more time in learning from instructors like you that give more than the minimum.

Take care,
Mitch

 

[TSandM]

When I learned to dive, I did it because I was sheepish. I also thought diving would probably be fun -- I liked underwater photographs, and enjoyed snorkeling. I expected to do a few dives here and there on vacation. Diving, from the outside, didn't seem very complicated.

My work schedule is erratic and not entirely under my control. Trying to find a month when I could make two night sessions a week for three weeks in a row was a nightmare -- and two weekends in succession was not possible. If you had made the class any longer, or any more expensive, I would have thrown over the idea and gone snorkeling on my vacation.

Life is complicated for a lot of people. Our pool nights keep folks up until about 11:30 pm; if you have a hard day of work ahead of you after that, by the end of three weeks, it's feeling like residency. If you have kids at home, you've got a sitter. And all this for an activity you've probably never even sampled, and to which you are far from committed. Contrast that with riding lessons . . . you can come to a barn and take an hour's lesson from somebody, with minimal investment, and if you don't like it, you don't have to come back. Same with skiing.

All of us who have become avid divers and understand how good skills make the activity so much more fun, find it easy to sit back and throw stones at short classes, and what appear to be minimally committed students. Of course they're minimally committed! How do they know there's any point to being anything else?

 

[drrich2]

The issue of how comprehensive basic OW training should be, and to what standard of diving competence students should be held, has been hotly debated time & time again. Some points from prior threads:

1.) Some prefer a modular approach where you train to, say, basic PADI OW (at least ready to buddy dive in a quarry, shore dive in calm west coast Bonaire locations, or shallow warm water low current high viz. Caribbean dives with a dive guide), and that may be all some people need for occasional vacation diving. Or it may let a person get air fills, practice diving in good conditions and apply for further training such as AOW, Deep, Navigation and Rescue. Some think if you can't be dropped in the the ocean in conditions comparable to a California dive charter with no dive guide, navigate your way out and get back to the boat without a 'baby sitter' (condescending term often used here), then you have no business getting an OW card. Yet some people never get good with navigation and are good divers otherwise. My point: some people think you should be very thoroughly trained, including for moderately advanced conditions, before you get a basic OW card (perhaps the equivalent of PADI OW, AOW, Peak Performance Buoyancy and Rescue Diver without requiring CPR or First Aid cert.s).

2.) Some think buddy responsibilities are such anyone without rescue skills such as getting an unconscious buddy to the surface shouldn't have a basic OW card. Others may think you can have a passenger in your car without being certified in CPR & First Aid in case something happens, and buddies are mainly there to share air if you get too low.

3.) Some people are intellectually curious and want to understand the subject matter the way an Engineer might - they get upset they weren't taught gas laws from Chemistry. Others don't want to bother with that; their main interest with Nitrox is having a cert. card, knowing how to analyze a tank, and knowing what depth not to get past so they don't seize and die.

4.) Some believe a class should be taught to a universal standard - if I can demonstrate the knowledge and skills to pass a PADI OW course in Bonaire, then I should be able to get my PADI OW cert. regardless of where I am and local conditions. And some think they should refuse to certify divers who aren't trained to a level to handle local conditions (which the diver may or may not dive in) - such as shore diving coastal regions with substantial waves, surge, at times poor viz, currents and tides.

5.) Judging from what I've seen on this forum, I suspect you've got different levels of training depending on what standard you want to hit. PADI/NAUI/SSI < SEI/CMAS maybe < than GUE Fundamentals? As a trend; I imagine some individual instructors are exceptions, and it would be interesting to hear how SEI training compares to GUE Fundamentals (since it seems everybody gets compared mostly to PADI).

My perspective is I'm certified via PADI for OW, AOW, Deep, Nitrox & am working toward Rescue Diver, which is making me think about risk anticipation/planning.

Where I think modern basic training often falls through is educating students about their limits. There's a pretty strong emphasis on discouraging entering overhead environments, but less on some other items. I don't favor making basic OW learn rescue skills, but maybe learning about an SMB?

Richard.

P.S.: I think Jim has mentioned in the past training people to a level he'd be comfortable letting his kids dive with them. Many people are much more conservative/protective with their kids than they are with themselves.

 

[Pullmyfinger]

That's a nice overview and assessment, Richard. ;-) That does seem to hit the main view points in these type of threads.

It was my understanding that the goal of OW training was to produce an independent diver, one who possessed a certain "mastery" of basic skills. Meaning they didn't require too much guidance or hand holding.

I thought the PADI "Scuba Diver" course was for those that only wanted to dive with a guide.
My opinion.....if a diver finished up an OW course without feeling confident, competent, and capable of planning and conducting a dive with an equally trained dive buddy within the limits of their training.....then that diver was ripped off by his instructor. That diver paid for an OW class, and was effectively trained to no higher level than that of a "Scuba Diver".
But some instructors don't care. As far as they're concerned, as long as they've checked off that student on the required skills in the minimum amount of time (defined as mastery), then they have successfully "trained" that diver.

It's easy enough to figure out which end of the spectrum instructors are on by reading through their posts in some of those other threads.
I know from reading the posts of the bare minimum types on here, that I've learned a lot about what to look for in an instructor......so a big thanks to those guys.


Luckily, not all instructors are like that. Such as the aforementioned OP and other instructors like him.

The problem seems to be how some instructors choose to define "independent " and "mastery".


-Mitch

 

[Heath Sapp]